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Chad's Rover Rehab (and turtle-speed offroad Classic build)

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#101
Disco2Guy

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... I can't see why they would go from one to the other.

 

Graeme

 

Because 20 years later they knew we'd be having this very conversation, trying to rationalize their thought process...


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#102
GraemeWare

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Because 20 years later they knew we'd be having this very conversation, trying to rationalize their thought process...

 

Brenton,

 

No, I think I have it .... looking at the dates all these vehicles were built, all of the ones with a thick flange were built on a Friday afternoon .... they just couldn't be bothered to machine them ....

 

Graeme


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1990 Range Rover Classic - LT230 Transfer box, Warn winch, 2" lift, 235/85-16 Dunlop MUD Rovers, "Blue Submarine"
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other assorted British pot metal ...


#103
TigerDan

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It's actually a different casting. They just felt they had to change it because...well, why not?!


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#104
AdvRovr

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:lol:

 

Who would've guessed a stupid diff casing would cause this much discussion and confusion? As my BMW friends always joke when we run across a non-sensical feature in the Bimmers: somewhere, some engineer was saying "I zhink ze cuztomers are going to love zis!"

 

Anyway, I feel like they wouldn't have put that many bolts on the diff if they weren't all necessary. If I was just mall cruising I wouldn't worry about it, but since I'm building this to be a trail rig I don't want to have any weak points like that when it's easy enough to mitigate. To change the studs, is it just a matter of pulling the diff and unbolting them from the inside of the axle housing? 

 

I'll go back and look again at the dampener, but it sure looked like the dampener was mounted to a piece that was cast into the diff. 

 

 

AND - PRIORITY - the engine is cutting out. In my long winded trip report I mentioned that it was bogging down and was low on power, and eventually gave a CEL code 19. I disconnected the TPS and it drove the whole way home without issue and seemed much stronger. This morning I was going to drive her to work, but the fuel cuts out immediately and the engine stumbles as soon as it hits about 1600 RPM in any gear. So, I understand the MAF could also be an issue. Rather than disconnecting I think I need to pull out the multimeter and do some testing, but does anyone have any experience or helpful tips here? 


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FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#105
AdvRovr

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It's actually a different casting. They just felt they had to change it because...well, why not?!

Clearly, they got bored of the old one and just wanted to change things up a bit! :lol:


Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#106
TigerDan

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There are a number of things that could be causing it. First, I would test the TPS...either by substitution, or with a multi-meter (I think I can dig up the testing procedure for you) and clear the code. Make sure the wires and connections are all in good nick (as the Brits say) and look closely at the three wires where they enter the body of the TPS, they're known for breaking off there. If everything checks out, it  actually sort of sounds like a low fuel pressure issue to me so that might be something to look into.

 

As for the number of bolts holding the diff into the housing, I'd have to disagree with your statement. I think the engineers at Land Rover subscribed the the theory that "More is better" on a lot of the things they did. Therer are 8 bolts holding the transmission to the block, most other manufacturers felt that 6 was enough. *(Granted that bolt pattern was designed by GM but Rover never changed it.) And you should see how many bolts hold the converter housing to the tranny! I've never counted but there must be at least 12-15 of them. Oh wait, that's ZF of Germany's design. Never mind...!

 

That's not to say that that particular number of bolts isn't needed, but I doubt that a there would be a substantial loss of strength by leaving those four nuts off, or threading them on the small amount that they'll go in the short run. I too would pull the diff to replace the studs, but I'd probably wait a bit and do it when I had to go in there for something else. At least, I'd do that on my own truck. On a customer's truck, I'd go ahead and pull the diff the first time. But hopefully I would have remembered to change out the studs at the time of first assembly.

 

So, changing them requires that you have 4 studs of the correct length on hand, either new or used. With the diff out, a good whack or two on th end of the stud drives them out, then you insert the replacement, put a spacer (a socket will usually work) over the stud and thread a nut on and then tighten it to draw the stud into place. The stud is splined a bit just on the shank just under the head and the head is sort of flat, not a typical bolt head.


Edited by TigerDan, 31 August 2015 - 03:32 PM.

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#107
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There are a number of things that could be causing it. First, I would test the TPS...either by substitution, or with a multi-meter (I think I can dig up the testing procedure for you) and clear the code. Make sure the wires and connections are all in good nick (as the Brits say) and look closely at the three wires where they enter the body of the TPS, they're known for breaking off there. If everything checks out, it actually sort of sounds like a low fuel pressure issue to me so that might be something to look into.


Thanks, I think I found the testing procedures now that you mentioned it. I'm interested in hearing more about the low fuel pressure connection. The cut is a hard and sudden cut, not a stumble, so it feels more like an ECU/sensor deal, but I like checking all my leads. Is there a Schrader valve somewhere to check pressure?

Also, as I read it, Code 19 is triggered by the relationship between MAF & TPS. Basically, it checks the logical possibilities of values. For the given MAF value, the TPS value is too low to make sense.

So, I feel like it's equally likely that it could be triggered by a dodgy MAF providing false values that are too high with the correct TPS value, as it is that the TPS is giving false value that are too low with the correct MAF value.

Does that sound right or am I out in left field?

Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
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FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#108
TigerDan

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It's certainly worth checking. There's a testing procedure for the MAF too, though every one I've tested has tested bas according to the readings but has still worked fine, so I'm not sure I fully trust the testing procedure. Do you know if you have the 3AM or 5Am MAF? On the 3AM it's cast right into the black plastic on top, the 5AM has a printed label which is often missing or unreadable. I think a '94 should have the 5AM but they're interchangable and often a 3AM will be used as a replacement by someone who either didn't know the difference or just used the easiset one to find. The 5AM is a simple plug-in upgrade on a vehicle which originally had the 3AM. The MAF is also tuneable, it has a removable metal plug and there's a setscrew underneath it. Testing procedures for all the major EFI components are available online in a pdf written by Mark Adams of Tornado Systems.

 

Another very common problem with Rovers is for a pin to come loose at a connector so that when the connector is pushed home, the loose pin pushes back into the connector and doesn't make contact, or makes intermittent contact. That's something that's definitely worth checking.

 

The '94 doesen't have a Schraeder valve in the fuel rail, that was added in '95. It's possible someone has installed one in the fuel line or installed a '95 fuel rail, otherwise pressure testing will have to be done by installing a temporary Tee in the line where it connects to the fuel rail.


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#109
DHappel

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Hmmmm....was just over on ExPo and happened across this thread:

http://www.expeditio...dventure-Report

 

 

Wellwhadayaknow?

 

 

 

BTW, the Turtle is a Stephen King reference.  Google can take it from there.

 

 


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#110
AdvRovr

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Hahaha - yep, we definitely have different styles. Perhaps not as different as he makes them out to be...

Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
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#111
Nick

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Chad - look what I found...

 

http://www.bmaparts....ated-components

 

Seems like they have Arnott airbags...



#112
AdvRovr

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Nice! Thanks.

I was able to do some testing last night and I believe BOTH the TPS and the MAF are at fault.

TPS is correct at idle and voltage rises smoothly with throttle up until about 70%. Then it gets completely wacky and jumps all over the place until 90%, where it acts normal again.

The MAF overshoots to 4-5V upon turning on the ignition, and takes a solid 7 seconds to settle into resting state. I have read that it should go directly to 0.30-0.34v, and that is considered defective if it overshoots to 0.5v or greater, and mine is hilariously past that.

It does read properly at idle and rose with more throttle, but I bet it's slow to respond. My multimeter does not sample fast enough to be sure though.

So, it appears they could both be contributing.

Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#113
TigerDan

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That sounds like the same readings I've gotten from every MAF I've tested, even ones that worked properly. Did you determine whether your MAF is 3 or 5 AM? I have several 3AMs but currently no 5s to spare. A 3 would still work for testing purposes or as a trail spare. Plenty of TPSs in stock though.


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#114
astateofmike

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That sounds like the same readings I've gotten from every MAF I've tested, even ones that worked properly. Did you determine whether your MAF is 3 or 5 AM? I have several 3AMs but currently no 5s to spare. A 3 would still work for testing purposes or as a trail spare. Plenty of TPSs in stock though.

I may want a 3AM and a TPS for spares. 


Just enjoying my time traveling at the Speed of Adventure.


#115
AdvRovr

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I have a 5AM. What's a tested used TPS run from Casa de Dan?

By the way, everything ran fine this morning with MAF and TPS both connected. I paid attention to my drive and I never get close to 70% throttle in normal driving, so that's why I never had that problem until I had to really push her.

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#116
astateofmike

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Well, up that pass will require that pushing.

 

We went to Bishop that way once with a group of us.  I told them go ahead, we will see you tomorrow as I still run my 3.5.


Just enjoying my time traveling at the Speed of Adventure.


#117
JeremyP

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Chad,
The only thing you need to do with the diff is change the 2 studs that are a tad too short on the rrc housing. Easy peasy


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#118
TigerDan

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Changing the studs is easy...it's the PITA of pulling the front calipers, rotors/hubs, stub axles, CV and axles, driveshaft and diff that tends to make the job a bit less than fun. At least on the rear it's simply a matter of unbolting the axles and sliding them out a bit to clear the diff, and then pulling the unbolting the driveshaft and pulling the diff.

 

However, if you have your heart set on changing the studs, there's a shortcut to all the above: Drain the diff and unbolt the driveshaft from the diff flange only, then compress it and move it up out of the way. I usually either ziptie or bungee it up. Then, unbolt the 7 bolts on each side which hold the swivel ball to the axle tube and you can slide the entire assembly out far enough to clear the diff without having to remove anything else.

 

As for the MAF/TPS, I'd start by replacing the TPS, it sounds like that flat spot is your entire problem. I'll bet that clears it right up.


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#119
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Changing the studs is easy...it's the PITA of pulling the front calipers, rotors/hubs, stub axles, CV and axles, driveshaft and diff that tends to make the job a bit less than fun. At least on the rear it's simply a matter of unbolting the axles and sliding them out a bit to clear the diff, and then pulling the unbolting the driveshaft and pulling the diff.

However, if you have your heart set on changing the studs, there's a shortcut to all the above: Drain the diff and unbolt the driveshaft from the diff flange only, then compress it and move it up out of the way. I usually either ziptie or bungee it up. Then, unbolt the 7 bolts on each side which hold the swivel ball to the axle tube and you can slide the entire assembly out far enough to clear the diff without having to remove anything else.

As for the MAF/TPS, I'd start by replacing the TPS, it sounds like that flat spot is your entire problem. I'll bet that clears it right up.

I agree about the second option with the 7 bolts. Way easier.

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#120
psykokid

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For pulling the front diff you can get away with removing the driveshaft, unbolting one end of the track rod and the drag link, and then unbolting the swivel ball housing from the axle tube. Slide the whole kit and caboodle out enough to get the axles out of the diff and support hub/swivel ball assembly on a milk crate, pair of jack stands or whatever else you have up to the task while you work on pulling the diff.

 

Still this is more work than the rear axle, hence the reason why my front ARB third is still sitting in a bucket in the garage waiting to be installed into the front axle.. :)






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