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parasitic draw

- - - - - LR3 electrical troubleshooting

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#1
DHappel

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Well bummer....went to start the LR3 yesterday and it was totally dead.  As in not even the door locks would operate.  This is a first - I have in the past been able to leave her sit for a week or more with no issues.  I've also been able to leave her sit with the fridge running in the summer and still start it the next day with no problems.

 

I charged it fully with my nifty super-deluxe-wonder charger after first using my old charger to raise the voltage from the 4v I saw on the my meter. (note- super-deluxe-wonder chargers are all well and good but won't start charging a dead battery until you get the voltage up over 6v, so don't toss that good old-fashion 'dumb' charger just yet)  The charger went through it's routine over a couple hours and brought me back to 'full'.  I then left it overnight and again this morning had the same thing - about 4v at the battery and totally dead.

 

At this point the battery is up for replacement.  Regardless of the cause of the problem automotive batteries don't like being drawn down that far and it's certainly compromised, and I don't know how old it is anyway.

 

The real question is what's pulling it dead.  The obvious suspects are the circuits I've added to run lights, fridge, radio, etc, but testing each of the shows no draw on my ammeter with thing off.  I did a quick check of the draw on the main power lead and found about 5 amps and changing, but I think that was because I had just turned the truck off and the computers were still going through their 'shut down' routine, plus I was still charging the battery.  

 

The next step will be to get the battery fully charged, then install a temporary jumper between the battery and the power wire.  I'll put the meter in parallel with this, then disconnect the jumper and watch the draw.  It should drop to only a few milliamps over about 20 minutes as the systems shut down, at least from what I've read.  

 

I'd like to think I just had a battery suddenly expire, but it's never that simple.

 


Don
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'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#2
AdvRovr

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Have fun. Had to do that with the 740 and every time I pulled a fuse and reinserted the car would come back out of sleep mode. Turned into an all-day thing of me going out every 18 minutes to try the next fuse. I think the BMW allowed up to 45mA in full sleep mode as "normal" and it wouldn't surprise me if a slightly newer truck could pull even more.

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#3
DHappel

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Had to run into town for some errands so I've been away from the Rover most of the day.  

 

I load tested the battery after fully charging then giving it about an hour off the charger for the surface charge to dissipate.  No problems.  800CCA battery tested at 400 amps good repeatedly.  Recovered to 12.4v after testing.

 

I thought my parasitic draw was high at first.  As things turned off it seemed to stabilize at 600mA (.6A).  Not huge, but higher than I expected.  Then after another 10 minutes or so it settled to a base-line of about 15mA (.015A).  That's about as low as you'll get on a car and nowhere near enough to run a battery flat in a day.

 

I've hooked her all back up and will check the voltage first thing in the morning to see what I've got.  At this point I have no great ideas.  While I could throw a battery at it and write it off as preventative maintenance, I had to toss $200+ on a good AGM battery.  It's a wierd size, group 94R.  I'd probably look for  a DieHard Platinum AGM which is really a re-badged Odyssey for less $$.  I can get cheaper AGMs, but if I'm going to do it I'll go with the best I can find.

 

I do think I'll go ahead and order that Lithium Ion jumper pack I was planning to pick up sooner rather than later though.


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Don
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#4
El Solis

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You probably had a light on or something silly and just didn't see it bc the battery was dead.

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#5
alpaca

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I had a similar issue with my 911 - pulled every fuse and connected ammeter in series and couldn't see anything unusual - I purchased a clamp style multimeter and was able to measure up to 2a draw from positive side of battery after the car was in sleep mode. Turned out to be bad diodes in the alternator - alternator would even get warm to the touch after leaving it overnight - I went through 3 batteries like this before I finally tracked the problem down ... Bosch alternator made in uk was no better than the old Lucas stuff - heck they probably had bought the old factory :) in the positive side I had San Jose atarter and generator rebuild my old unit with new bearings, regulator, diodes etc. For about $200 - better than a chinese reman or Oem one ... So you might just have had a bad battery - but check altemator temp after leaving overnight to make sure that is not your problem ....

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#6
DHappel

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Just went out and checked the voltage on the battery; 12.22v  So a little lower than it should be but nothing like the 4v it had been at before.  That's a slightly low battery, not a dead one.  I haven't tried to start the truck yet but I'm sure it would start easily at that voltage.  Of course, I had to open the door to get to the hood release, so that 'woke it up' and I can't check draw until it settles back down.  (opening a door draws about 3 amps).  I've got other things to do on the truck today so I'm going to continue to monitor voltage through the day and see what happens.  In a bit I'll also double check the current draw to see if I'm still below 20mA.

 

Interesting on the alternator.  I've heard of this one other time but haven't seen it myself.  I'll see if I can feel any heat off it.   I have a clamp meter, but it's not very accurate at all.  In fact, measuring an open circuit it showed a few tenths of an amp....that's with one end of the wire literally disconnected, so unless it was acting as an antenna I'm pretty sure there was zero current flow there...  I had my regular meter between the positive post and the positive battery wire when taking measurements, so ANY power flow should show up on it.

 

I may also try pulling the battery out and fully charging it then seeing if the voltage drops any overnight.  It shouldn't, but if it does that would indicate the battery isn't holding a charge well.


Don
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'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#7
ndamico

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Just went out and checked the voltage on the battery; 12.22v So a little lower than it should be but nothing like the 4v it had been at before. That's a slightly low battery, not a dead one. I haven't tried to start the truck yet but I'm sure it would start easily at that voltage. Of course, I had to open the door to get to the hood release, so that 'woke it up' and I can't check draw until it settles back down. (opening a door draws about 3 amps). I've got other things to do on the truck today so I'm going to continue to monitor voltage through the day and see what happens. In a bit I'll also double check the current draw to see if I'm still below 20mA.

Interesting on the alternator. I've heard of this one other time but haven't seen it myself. I'll see if I can feel any heat off it. I have a clamp meter, but it's not very accurate at all. In fact, measuring an open circuit it showed a few tenths of an amp....that's with one end of the wire literally disconnected, so unless it was acting as an antenna I'm pretty sure there was zero current flow there... I had my regular meter between the positive post and the positive battery wire when taking measurements, so ANY power flow should show up on it.

I may also try pulling the battery out and fully charging it then seeing if the voltage drops any overnight. It shouldn't, but if it does that would indicate the battery isn't holding a charge well.

Don, my clamp meter has a zero function for DC circuits. Does yours? If I don't do that it isn't very accurate. You are wwelcome to borrow mine.

Nick

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#8
DHappel

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OK, it's been over 24 hrs since I had it on a charger and the battery is still fine.  

 

This morning it first read 12.2v, but that was right after I'd opened a door and 'woken it up', so there was some draw on it.  It later came back up to 12.4v - what you would expect to see on a fully charged battery.

 

I checked it on and off throughout the day and it stayed at 12.4v.  Maybe I did leave something on, though I haven't turned anything off so I don't know what.  All I know is I had a dead battery twice in a row and now I don't.  Electrickery....it'll get you every time.

 

She fired up just fine this afternoon just like always.  I let her run for about 15 minutes while I fiddled around doing other stuff before shutting her down.  The real question is what will the battery be like when I get home Thursday night.  If it starts then I'll say I must have simply missed something.  If not, back to the drawing board.

 

On a related note, I was doing some comparing of the stock group 94R battery which is relatively uncommon, and a group 31 I had in the van which is a very common size.  Although the posts aren't in exactly the same spots (centered rather than toward one side) it looks like it will fit with little work.  I think all I'd have to do is make a new battery hold-down.  I may look into this later as I'd much rather have a standard size/shape battery than this funky one. 


Don
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#9
DHappel

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And back to square one....

 

This morning I went out and started the Rover and it barely cranked.  It did start, but clearly the battery was down.  Given a little more time it wouldn't have started at all I'm sure.

 

grumble....mutter....

 

I'll look into it again when I get home as I'm leaving for the bay area shortly.  I'm going to try to cut the week short and work on it Friday before heading up to the wrenching day.  Sorta depends on what parts arrive for a boat job I have scheduled for this week.


Don
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#10
ndamico

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If u want a second lr battery to test against i have a good one u can have. Also clamp meter if yours isnt accurate enough.

Nick

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#11
alpaca

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If you disconnect positive cable from battery and leave a few days is it ok ? I'm not sure how easy it is to disconnect alternator cable - overnight - that would be easiest way to rule out that problem ...

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#12
DHappel

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Hard to say exactly what's going on, and I'm at work now so I won't get home to play with it right away. (though it looks like I may have a cancelation and make it home early this week)

 

Initially I had spent a weekend mounting my new radio under the seat.  However at that time I did not actually do any of the electrical work on the radio.  So unless I inadvertently caused an issue with the seat's wiring that should be of no effect.  The next time I came to the truck was a couple weeks later and I found the battery dead.  As in 4v dead.  Couldn't even get the door locks to work - had to use the manual key so I could get to the hood release.

 

I charged the battery briefly using a 'dumb' charger to get some power to it, then switched to a 'smart' charger (a Noco Genius G26000) and let it run though it's paces.  The truck was fine later in the day after the charger had done it's thing so I shut it down just like normal.

 

The next morning I again found the battery dead.  Now I was worried that something was actually wrong and started taking current draw measurements.  After recharging again with the 'smart' charger, my initial checks showed a fairly high 'off' draw, but I realized that the truck takes some time for all the electronics to 'go to sleep'.  After letting every thing settle, I was only seeing less than 20mA (my meter doesn't have great resolution and was fluctuating between 10 and 20mA). 

 

Since this low draw seemed completely normal, I left it alone overnight.  The next morning I still had 12.4v at the battery.  Throughout the day I checked it and it stayed at 12.4v just like it should.  So I figured I must have missed something before and it was now OK.

 

Then this morning it was nearly dead again.  While I didn't actually check the voltage it barely started.  I did let it run for about 5 minutes then put a 10A charger on it for about 15 min before I left.  Not enough to fully charge a battery but theoretically enough that it should start again when I return home later this week.  I also popped the fuses out of my self-added accessories just to be sure they weren't pulling things down.  When I had taken my prior measurements I didn't find any draw on these circuits when they were off, as expected.

 

So in short I don't know if it will be OK if I pull the cable and leave it sit.  One time it was dead, the next it was dead again, the next it was OK, then the next it was (mostly) dead.  Most likely it will be dead when I get back home, though if it starts I'll have to double check that something hasn't changed in my added circuits.  They really don't power much, just my rear aux lighting and my fridge when it first failed, though now I'm also running the radio and compressors.

 

The most frustrating part is I didn't really spend a lot of time trying to figure it out over the weekend and now I'm not there to work on it so all I can do is speculate for now.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#13
GraemeWare

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The most frustrating part is I didn't really spend a lot of time trying to figure it out over the weekend and now I'm not there to work on it so all I can do is speculate for now.

 

Don,

 

I Googled it and found the answer .....

 

http://www.theguardi...te-kate-hindley

 

Regards,

 

Graeme


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#14
DHappel

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I'm going with accessorized.  Definitely accessorized.


Don
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#15
ndamico

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do you want my extra battery to test with?


Nick

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#16
DHappel

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I couldn't stand it, so I came home last night.  Of course the battery was dead...4v or so.  I put it on the 'smart' charger overnight.  It took over 6 hours to reach fully charged per the charger's brain...I went to sleep around midnight and it wasn't 100% at that point but was this morning.

 

About 7:15 this morning I set up my testing.  The truck has been off all night, so it's fully 'asleep'.  I also have all my accessories attached such as the radio and fridge, winch, lights, compressors, etc (only the radio and fridge should pull any tiny amount of power when not in use, and even then only a few milliamps).

 

Here's what I show as of about 7:45AM  640mA draw and 12.39v  That seems a little high but acceptable.  Part of that may be due to my accessories as mentioned or I may have accidentally 'woken up' something when setting up my test rig.

 

20150528_074845_zpsukliic2a.jpg

 

Oddly, the voltage came UP slightly about 15 minutes later.  I don't have an explanation for that(?)  A fully charged 12v battery should not be able to make almost 13v without some sort of outside power like a charger or alternator which I clearly don't have in use here.  I did put another meter on it and still saw the higher than expected voltage.

 

20150528_080337_zps9jyt2sbn.jpg

 

I will continue to monitor throughout the day and see what happens.  You can see in the pics I have the positive lead fully disconnected from the battery and I'm passing 100% of the current through the meter.

 

 

Update-

Oddly, at 9:00 my current draw had dropped to about 20mA (as little as can be expected and about what I was reading last week) but again my battery voltage was up-now over 13.1v  I have a hard time believing that that tiny decrease in current draw is making that much change to the battery voltage.  That would also suppose I am still seeing some residual surface voltage from charging overnight to explain the higher than 12.4v. 

(btw, the LCD on m Fluke is funky so it's hard to read...it's not your eyes)

 

20150528_085819_zpswamjkhjx.jpg

 

Update 2 - 10:00 and still the same, 20mA or less (fluctuating between 20 and 12mA) and 13.14v.  Will check in again around noon.


Edited by DHappel, 28 May 2015 - 09:16 AM.

Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#17
DiscoChef

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Can't help you diagnose your problem but that sure is one clean engine bay! How do you do it? I too try to keep it clean.


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#18
DHappel

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Can't help you diagnose your problem but that sure is one clean engine bay! How do you do it? I too try to keep it clean.

Photoshop?

Actually, I don't do a lot to keep it clean.  It helps that the LR3 doesn't puke oil everywhere, but mostly I've just hit it with the pressure washer a couple times a year when I'm doing the rest of the truck anyway.


Don
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#19
ndamico

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put another battery in it and see what happens. rule out the battery.    you can have the one i pulled from my lr4 a couple months ago tonight if you want it.


Nick

2010 LR4 HSE-Lux/HD. Compos w/ Toyo Open County AT2 265/65R18, IIDTool, Baja Rack.

1995 RRC LWB.  3" RTE Lift/Bumpers, 7100SB Shocks, 255x85R16 Toyo MT's, Mantec Snorkel, Ashcroft Lockers/Axles/CV's/4.12 Gears, GBR Driveshafts & Thrust Bolts, LT230, QT Diff Guards, Voyager Rack, Winch, Sliders, Dual Batteries, ARB Twin Compressor, Kenwood D710G HAM Radio, Xantrex Inverter, Swing Away & Sliders.

 

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#20
DHappel

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put another battery in it and see what happens. rule out the battery.    you can have the one i pulled from my lr4 a couple months ago tonight if you want it.

Yeah, I'm going to do that anyway.  Still annoyed at what I see on the meters....I expected to see more draw and a dropping voltage, not an increase!

 

I will probably pick up a group 31 Diehard Platinum this weekend.  Although my distributor carries Odyssey the price is about the same from him as retail from Sears and they give a better warranty.  Plus he's down in the bay area and I'm already back in the Sac area for the weekend.

 

Guess I'd better get some billing out this morning to pay for this stuff....

 

 

Since I wasn't generating any good data with it just sitting there I decided I'd key it on and see what I got.  Jumped to about 10+ amps and 11.xx volts before I started smoking my little clip leads.  Key off and doors closed I'm now showing about 6 amps and still 12.38v.  Current should slowly wind back down as systems go to sleep.  The only interesting thing I learned from that was the voltage dropping more than expected from the key-on current.  I would have expected the voltage to still be over 12v in that state.  Another pointer toward just replacing the battery.


Edited by DHappel, 28 May 2015 - 10:20 AM.

Don
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