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parasitic draw

- - - - - LR3 electrical troubleshooting

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#21
alpaca

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Last time I went to Sears - it was big discount to order the battery on-line and then pick it up in store - versus just going to the store ....


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#22
AdvRovr

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Fully charged battery is 12.6v. How you could get 12.9-13.1 is a mystery to me.

640mA is too high and would be enough to keep the truck from starting after a few days, but I don't think it could possibly draw the battery to 4v overnight.

Do you have anything Lucas in your truck? :D

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#23
DHappel

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The 640mA settled down to about 40, then to 20-ish.  Apparently I still had some stuff 'awake'.  I've been monitoring it on and off all day today and it's been fine.  I got bored and fired it up for a minute then shut it down just to see if I would reset anything that might not properly turn off and cause a draw but nada.  right now it's still above 12.4v.  I'm driving it to the Sac gathering tonight as well as to run some errands before hand.  I'm not going to have it on a charger tonight, so I'll see what it says again in the morning.  It's quite annoying.


Don
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#24
ndamico

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Fwiw i can get pretty good pricing on northstar agm batteries so if they make one you want i can get it delivered to me for free. I bought them for my rrc build. Same thing as odyssey.

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#25
William Stephenson

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600mA.... Sounds like your Medium Speed CAN Network is waking up..... Do you remember where you tapped your accessory wires? 



#26
William Stephenson

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i don't know if you're car will like an AGM battery. I'm pretty sure I recall a time that a customer did that and it ended up causing other issues. Your alternator is ECM controlled. It needs to know what's going where and why. Let me think about this. More beer please!


Edited by William Stephenson, 28 May 2015 - 07:59 PM.

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#27
GraemeWare

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I couldn't stand it, so I came home last night.  Of course the battery was dead...4v or so.  I put it on the 'smart' charger overnight.  It took over 6 hours to reach fully charged per the charger's brain...I went to sleep around midnight and it wasn't 100% at that point but was this morning.

 

About 7:15 this morning I set up my testing.  The truck has been off all night, so it's fully 'asleep'.  I also have all my accessories attached such as the radio and fridge, winch, lights, compressors, etc (only the radio and fridge should pull any tiny amount of power when not in use, and even then only a few milliamps).

 

Here's what I show as of about 7:45AM  640mA draw and 12.39v  That seems a little high but acceptable.  Part of that may be due to my accessories as mentioned or I may have accidentally 'woken up' something when setting up my test rig.

 

Oddly, the voltage came UP slightly about 15 minutes later.  I don't have an explanation for that(?)  A fully charged 12v battery should not be able to make almost 13v without some sort of outside power like a charger or alternator which I clearly don't have in use here.  I did put another meter on it and still saw the higher than expected voltage.

 

 

I will continue to monitor throughout the day and see what happens.  You can see in the pics I have the positive lead fully disconnected from the battery and I'm passing 100% of the current through the meter.

 

 

Update-

Oddly, at 9:00 my current draw had dropped to about 20mA (as little as can be expected and about what I was reading last week) but again my battery voltage was up-now over 13.1v  I have a hard time believing that that tiny decrease in current draw is making that much change to the battery voltage.  That would also suppose I am still seeing some residual surface voltage from charging overnight to explain the higher than 12.4v. 

(btw, the LCD on m Fluke is funky so it's hard to read...it's not your eyes)

 

 

Update 2 - 10:00 and still the same, 20mA or less (fluctuating between 20 and 12mA) and 13.14v.  Will check in again around noon.

 

Don,

 

The 600mA plus is the CAN bus.  20mA is almost nothing (two LEDs pull that and you can run them off a 9V dry battery for weeks).  You have a battery with a cell going bad.

 

Graeme


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Graeme Ware -- San Carlos, CA

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#28
ColinB

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Don Do you have a voltmeter that can record max and min during a time period?  I have found that very helpful in the past.  


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#29
DHappel

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Well, I have some new info to work with.

All day today I had nothing - no problems, voltage stayed high and current draw low.  But when I drove the truck to the Sac gathering I got a 'special programs disabled' warning and I pulled a code p1811 - 4wd low ratio shorted to ground.  I cleared it and it immediately returned.  My suspicion is that while screwing around under the passenger seat mounting the radio I may have nicked or pinched a wire.  While this may not be the actual cause of the battery issue, any time I hear 'shorted to ground' I have to think that's a possible drain.

 

Anyway, tomorrow I'll get back under the seat and start looking around.  If I don't find anything there I'll pull the console again and start looking at that area.  Of course that error could be unrelated to my radio installation (fwiw the truck still shifts into low just fine) and could be anything, anywhere, but at least I've got something to look for in the morning.


Don
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#30
GraemeWare

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Don Do you have a voltmeter that can record max and min during a time period?  I have found that very helpful in the past.  

 

Don,

 

I think that was Fluke 87 you have?  They can be put on a fast or slow max/min hold.  Let me know if you want me to find my instruction book!  Once you get to the 20mA draw, set the max/min and then at least the next morning you'll know whether it has come out of sleep mode by itself.  If it hasn't and your battery is flat then it is 100% the battery.

 

Many years ago we found an airport radar was waking up a vehicle computer every night (thus flattening the battery) of an otherwise low draw system.

 

Regards,

 

Graeme


Graeme Ware -- San Carlos, CA

1990 Range Rover Classic - LT230 Transfer box, Warn winch, 2" lift, 235/85-16 Dunlop MUD Rovers, "Blue Submarine"
1996 Discovery 1 (R380 Manual Transmission, Ashcroft under-drive, RoverWare rear bumper, 33x12.5-15 BFG ATs) -- we call her "Katrina" -- Fordyce 7.5 mile survivor
1999 Discovery 2 (D1 CDL Linkage, 265/75-16 BFG A/T KO, RoverWare front and rear bumper)
1993 Jaguar XJS convertible; 1971 Triumph GT6; 1959 Morris Minor convertible, Tesla Model 3,
other assorted British pot metal ...


#31
William Stephenson

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i had an lr4 do this last month. same code. Check the tcase motor. i checked the two network wires and have 5V on both of them. On a MS CAN (your car should have about 5 different can networks), it should be 2.7ish on one and 2.3ish on the other. If you need connector/wire #'s let me know. 



#32
William Stephenson

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LR4 code was a P1810-00 for short to power. nevermind



#33
DHappel

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Thanks for the input; I'll be digging into it later this morning and of course will report back if I find anything.


Don
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#34
DHappel

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I have re-opened the console and pulled out the radio under the seat looking for any signs of shorted wires but nada...  Of course it's not like access is great or I know what wires I'm trying to trace, so I'm just sort of randomly poking around hoping to find a pinched wire somewhere.

 

This is rapidly increasing my frustration level ... I really don't enjoy doing this sort of work!  I will continue to poke around this afternoon but I have already set up my fall-back position and have an appointment to drop it off with the dealer on Monday if needed.  Given that Michele and I are generally not around during the week I figured I'd better get moving on this now to be sure I don't get into a tight spot later. 

 

Here's the latest info:

 

2 error codes-

P1811 - 4wd low ratio short circuit to ground

C1a01 - LED circuit

I note that both of them show as occurring at the same mileage, so likely the same problem causing both errors.

 

It does shift in/out of low range fine, and I don't really care about the LEDs working or not since there are dashboard displays to tell you what mode it's in, but always good to resolve any issues I can.  As noted, I suspect fixing one will fix the other.  The only obvious result of these codes is a warning at first start up saying 'transmission fault, special programs unavailable'.  Otherwise it drives fine.

 

If anybody has some info on what connectors/wires I might want to try tracing (yeah....good luck with THAT) it might save me some $$ at the dealer.  Otherwise I'll poke around a bit more on my own but likely it will be Niello who sorts it out.


Don
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'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#35
William Stephenson

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That LED is wired directly to the Tcase module. PM me if you want a diagram. 



#36
DHappel

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An update-  the executive summery is this:  I'm not happy with Niello Sacramento

 

I dropped the truck off on Monday at 7:30AM for an 11:00 appointment to have the error codes sorted out.  When I dropped it off I added a little to the work order, asking if they would double check a slightly loose rattle in the steering and get a 4 wheel alignment done, and told them they could have it all week and I would pick it up on Friday as I had an outing planned on Saturday.

 

Today is Thursday and I realized I hadn't heard anything from them.  I called this morning at 8 and left a message asking for an update.  They got back to me about 9 to say they basically hadn't fixed anything.

 

They had said they've seen these codes plenty of times before so they checked and cleaned the pins at the T-case module and on the transmission module but nothing there looked bad.  They didn't get the codes back right away, but after driving it a bit they still came back. 

 

On the rattle in the steering they said it must be because my truck is lifted and the tie-rods are at an angle so they didn't know if replacing them would make a difference or not.

 

Basically the service writer spent 5 minutes telling me a bunch of reasons why he didn't have any answers. 

 

The lift should have nothing to do with the rattle in the steering.  My 'normal' ride height is the same as the stock 'off road' ride height.  What they are suggesting is that all LR3s would have that rattle in the steering when in off-road mode.  Obviously they don't.  What it boils down to is 'we don't know and don't want to find out, so we'll just blame it on not being stock'.  It told them to skip this and just get the alignment done.

 

On the codes they feel it could possibly be related to the wiring harness.  Really?  You think?  Given I told you when I dropped it off I suspected a pinched wiring harness in the console or under the passenger seat, you spent all your diagnostic time on other things and now have come to the conclusion that perhaps its the very thing I told you to start with?  Nice.  Oh and btw, they'll want 3 hrs authorized to check the harness.  Fine - just do it.

 

The real annoyance is that they've had the truck for 4 days now and I'm supposed to pick it up tomorrow and yet they hadn't called to tell me anything.  If I hadn't called them myself would they have done ANYTHING?  Were they just going to wait until I showed up to collect the truck and then tell me?

 

Basically I told them I wanted the truck on Friday as expected for Saturday's MORG, but I HAD to have it for the following week's OR trip. 

 

They are supposed to call me back this afternoon with an update.  I have low expectations.

 

<grumble, mutter>


Don
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#37
RedRover

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Well that isn't what anyone wants to hear - I had a similar experience with an independent shop I used to go to... apparently my off-the-cuff comment of "Take your time, I'd rather it done right than fast" turned into "Please sit on my vehicle for a couple of weeks."


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#38
psykokid

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An update-  the executive summery is this:  I'm not happy with Niello Sacramento

 

*ramble, ramble*

 

I have low expectations.

 

<grumble, mutter>

 

 

2s9akpx.jpg


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#39
AdvRovr

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Well that isn't what anyone wants to hear - I had a similar experience with an independent shop I used to go to... apparently my off-the-cuff comment of "Take your time, I'd rather it done right than fast" turned into "Please sit on my vehicle for a couple of weeks."

That was a lesson I learned early on, in fact it was with my first car when I was 16. Now I make it clear I expect back on time AND done right or they'll be seeing me again. Even if I don't care if it's late, I'll still followup and apply some pressure just to keep from being that car sitting in the back lot for a month. Never again.

 

Sorry to hear Don. Definitely a punt on the work. I'd argue they were not entitled to payment for the time spent on diagnosing things other than what you requested.


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#40
DHappel

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I work in a service field; I get that things often are more difficult than the service writer says.  Rule #1 in keeping a customer happy even if you have bad news is KEEP THEM INFORMED.

 

Fingers crossed....maybe they'll have it done by Friday as expected after all.  Don't want to make any assumptions.


Don
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