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Winch Lines Synthetic Ropes Need Input

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14 replies to this topic

#1
clearcut

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My 109 came with a warn winch.   I need input on replacing the winch rope

 

The warn winch can hold 150 feet of line.

 

I want to move onto Synthetic.

 

What brand and size would you use?

 

My 109 has to be  4,300 pounds with extra fuel.

 

 

 

thanks

 

Joshua

 

1967 Land Rover 109 NADA

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joshua tyler

#2
DHappel

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What winch do you have and what size steel cable did it originally come with?  You can use that number to come up with the equivalent size rope.  As for the rope itself, any of the major companies like Viking (plug for a sponsor!) will offer pre-rigged lines in different diameters and lengths.  Or if you want to make your own just buy Dyneema or Amsteel rope and come learn about splicing with Brenton at the Annual.  :)  BTW, don't forget the chaif gear, heat guard, thimbles, etc.... (probably easier to just buy a pre-made line)


Don
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#3
DHappel

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Oh, and more to the point, you'll probably be looking at 5/16" or 3/8" rope.  The 3/8" will almost certainly be over-kill and much stronger than the steel you're replacing but I'm only guessing at what you have now.


Don
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#4
Disco2Guy

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Looks like a Warn 8274 under that cover. You could go 5/16" diameter rope, but most run 3/8". What locations do you plan to going wheeling as that too can determine the length of rope you'll need. If it's here in CA. you should do fine with 100', you can always buy a 50' extension if it's needed. The main reason I'd recommend 100' is that you need to be on the last layer of rope to reach the winch's full power rating. With 150' on the drum you have 50' more rope to pull out and rig before getting to the same rating with 100'.

 

Once the old steel cable is off make sure the drum surface is nice and smooth. You should be able to run your bare hand over it and not feel any barbs or nicks that might damage a synthetic line. For some extra grip on the drum paint it with a high heat grill spray paint. The texture is a little abrasive and helps keeps the rope from slipping. With a steel cable you can go down to the last 4-5 wraps, but synthetic needs to keep the entire last layer on the drum. Winchline.com (aka Viking OffRoad) is THE place to go for your rope and end attachments.

 

Looks like you already have the Hawse fairlead, but you'll need a different location to secure the cover. Looks like it would rub on the new line.


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#5
TomOwen

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Looks like a Warn 8274 under that cover. You could go 5/16" diameter rope, but most run 3/8". What locations do you plan to going wheeling as that too can determine the length of rope you'll need. If it's here in CA. you should do fine with 100', you can always buy a 50' extension if it's needed. The main reason I'd recommend 100' is that you need to be on the last layer of rope to reach the winch's full power rating. With 150' on the drum you have 50' more rope to pull out and rig before getting to the same rating with 100'.

 

Once the old steel cable is off make sure the drum surface is nice and smooth. You should be able to run your bare hand over it and not feel any barbs or nicks that might damage a synthetic line. For some extra grip on the drum paint it with a high heat grill spray paint. The texture is a little abrasive and helps keeps the rope from slipping. With a steel cable you can go down to the last 4-5 wraps, but synthetic needs to keep the entire last layer on the drum. Winchline.com (aka Viking OffRoad) is THE place to go for your rope and end attachments.

 

Looks like you already have the Hawse fairlead, but you'll need a different location to secure the cover. Looks like it would rub on the new line.

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#6
clearcut

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Thanks for all the feed and direction

 

Could you explain:

 

Rope rating at 100 feet if you still have 50 feet on the drum..   Assume a 150 foot rope

 

thanks

 

 

josh


joshua tyler

#7
DHappel

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Think of the drum of your winch like a gear.  The bigger the gear is the faster it turns but the less power it makes - sort of like your old 10-speed bicycle's gears; you shift the front gearset onto a larger diameter gear and you can go faster but it's harder to peddle.

 

If you were to study the manual on any given winch, it will tell you your maximum rated power - say 9500 lbs - is only achieved when you are on the first layer of rope/cable on the drum.  With each extra layer that builds up you are increasing the diameter of the drum (the 'gear') and therefore reducing the amount of load the winch can pull.  Meaning if you need to do some heavy pulling you want to be on the first layer of you winch line.  If your anchor point is 50' away and you only pull out half of your 100' line you won't have full power available.  If you only pull out 1/3 of your 150' line you'll have even less power available.  The solution to this is to rig a more complicated design with snatch blocks (which can also help increase pulling power dramatically but takes more time and equipment) or to choose an anchor point further away - assuming one is available.

 

If you were mostly in the desert or other areas where anchor points can be fewer and further apart having more line on the winch is handy.  But in our area we usually have trees or other anchor points within 100' or less so running less line on the winch is more practical.  It's also cheaper and easier to maintain.  As Brenton pointed out, many of us carry extensions we can use if we need to get to an anchor point further than our 100' line can reach.  Extensions can be made up from stuff you already have on hand such as a tow strap, or you can carry a dedicated piece of synthetic line in your recovery bag.  I have a 50' 3/8" extension line (haven't had to use it...yet) in my bag and it takes up very little room and weighs next to nothing, so it's easy to have on hand 'just in case'.  

 

If you really want to study up on winching, take a look at the old army recovery manual:
http://www.bits.de/N...Fm20-22(62).pdf

 

While it's old, much of the info is still applicable.  OK-you may not care much about replacing the tread on a tank, but they explain a lot of info about setting up different recoveries as well as drag of different surfaces and tons of other info.  Think of it as vehicle recovery 101.


Edited by DHappel, 29 August 2015 - 07:46 AM.

Don
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#8
Disco2Guy

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Sure thing Josh.

 

For this example, let's say you have a winch rated at 10,000lbs (the M8274 is an 8,000lbs. winch) . The only time the winch will be pulling with that much force is when you are on the last layer of rope on the drum. In my post, I mentioned layers and wraps. A wrap is when the rope completes a single 360* pass around the drum of the winch.  A layer is composed of multiple wraps that extends from one side of the drum to the other side of the drum. A single layer is usually comprised of 10-12 wraps. The number of layers is determined by the length of your rope. As the number of layers increases, the pulling power of the winch decreases. You can expect a 10-15% reduction in pulling power (per layer) after the second layer.

 

This is where the length of your rope comes into play. You're stuck going up hill, in mud, and the only secure winch point is 50' away. You decide to do a single line straight pull (your winch to the recovery point). With 100' of rope, you'll be around the 3rd layer and pulling at ~8,000lbs. With 150' worth of rope on the drum you might be at the 5th layer and only pulling ~6,000lbs. The way to get more pulling power with the 150' is to use a snatch block (pulley) at the recovery point 50' away, run the line back to your bumper and secure it with a D-shackle. You have now doubled the amount of line being used, and have decreased the number of layers, thus giving you more pulling power.


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#9
Disco2Guy

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Extensions can be made up from stuff you already have on hand such as a tow strap, or you can carry a dedicated piece of synthetic line in your recovery bag.

 

 

Things like tow straps or any piece of kit that has elastic extension should never be used during a winching operation. They can shock load the winch which is not designed to handle that kind of stress.


Brenton Corns
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#10
Disco2Guy

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Thanks for the link to the field guide, Don. Reading that is a good way to spend a dreary Saturday afternoon:)

 

I also wanted to mention that 3/8" Dyneema has a breaking strength rated at 20,000lbs. Your winch will most likely stall before the rope breaks. However there are limitations to synthetic rope that you should be aware of to maximize its service life.

 

Dyneema is not very abrasive resistant at all. Dirt and dust that gets caught between the fibers can cause abrasion from the inside and reduce its integrity. Running it over rocks can easily destroy a line. As Don mention, a chafe guard should be installed over the line. They are usually around 10-15' long. Storing it on the line near the thimble also helps to protect it when not in use. If it's been used in a dusty environment you can clean it by running it through a bucket of soapy water and let it dry in the sun.


Brenton Corns
TREAD Lightly! Tread Trainer
 

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2001 D2

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#11
TomOwen

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Things like tow straps or any piece of kit that has elastic extension should never be used during a winching operation. They can shock load the winch which is not designed to handle that kind of stress.


"Tow strap" vs. recovery strap??

Recovery, lots of kinetic energy build-up/release

Tow-Strap - less if any kinetic build up no?

Thus "Tow-Strap" ok Recovery - bad for winching... Y es?


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#12
DHappel

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My thinking was along the way Tom mentioned. A tow strap shouldn't have a lot of stretch vs a recovery strap with a lot of stretch. Regardless an actual winch extension would be the better option.

Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#13
GraemeWare

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...If you were to study the manual on any given winch, it will tell you your maximum rated power - say 9500 lbs - is only achieved when you are on the first layer of rope/cable on the drum.  With each extra layer that builds up you are increasing the diameter of the drum (the 'gear') and therefore reducing the amount of load the winch can pull.  Meaning if you need to do some heavy pulling you want to be on the first layer of you winch line.  If your anchor point is 50' away and you only pull out half of your 100' line you won't have full power available.  ....

 

 

Don,

 

Good explanation, except for your use of the word "power".  How much line you have out has nothing to do with the power available .... but you know that.

 

The pulling force (actually the moment, or torque) available reduces, but the power stays the same.  Typically, people use lbs for force, which is not actually correct (it is a measure of mass), but since this planet has constant gravity they are directly proportional.  Of course, we should be using SI units, so it would be the Newton for force and the kg for mass.

 

Trivia question:  What is the real name for the measure of force in non-metric (I was going to say Imperial) units?

 

 

Regards,

 

Graeme


Graeme Ware -- San Carlos, CA

1990 Range Rover Classic - LT230 Transfer box, Warn winch, 2" lift, 235/85-16 Dunlop MUD Rovers, "Blue Submarine"
1996 Discovery 1 (R380 Manual Transmission, Ashcroft under-drive, RoverWare rear bumper, 33x12.5-15 BFG ATs) -- we call her "Katrina" -- Fordyce 7.5 mile survivor
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#14
GraemeWare

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Things like tow straps or any piece of kit that has elastic extension should never be used during a winching operation. They can shock load the winch which is not designed to handle that kind of stress.

 

Brenton,

 

Correct, but for the wrong reason.  It is because it stores energy and is therefore uncontrollable (or less controllable).  If your winch has put the tension on, by giving a certain force, then the shock load cannot exceed that load (unless you have a really really fast winch!).

 

We actually saw this during the recovery of the second Subaru during the Mendo Rally.  Once the Subaru was up on to the road, it continued to move due to the elasticity of the 200 feet of webbing going up the hill, even though we'd stopped winching.  Remember that?  You can see it on one of the videos.

 

Regards,

 

Graeme


Graeme Ware -- San Carlos, CA

1990 Range Rover Classic - LT230 Transfer box, Warn winch, 2" lift, 235/85-16 Dunlop MUD Rovers, "Blue Submarine"
1996 Discovery 1 (R380 Manual Transmission, Ashcroft under-drive, RoverWare rear bumper, 33x12.5-15 BFG ATs) -- we call her "Katrina" -- Fordyce 7.5 mile survivor
1999 Discovery 2 (D1 CDL Linkage, 265/75-16 BFG A/T KO, RoverWare front and rear bumper)
1993 Jaguar XJS convertible; 1971 Triumph GT6; 1959 Morris Minor convertible
other assorted British pot metal ...


#15
TomOwen

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Saw this on IH8Mud, funny he suggested winching... This is I have one of these and it was what I would likely use if need be...


ARB Winch Extension Strap 2" x 65' 9900lbs for sale.

Perfect for extending the length of your winch's cable These non stretch straps are lighter and easier to store than additional lengths of wire rope.

$55

ARB%20Strap_zpsfbwyrfbs.jpg




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Tom Owen
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'96 Discovery I, 122k, 5sp, RoverWare Bumper, Winch, ARB, BFGs, LEDs, OMEs, SD, etc...

On a slow transition from Carpool to Trail with the help of this Club

Y2K Toyota Land Cruiser Series 100
; Cooper A/T3s, PacaSport, glitter, hair-bows, jolly ranchers and juice box stains...

@TomOwen






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