Jump to content

Welcome to NCLR - Northern California Land Rover Club
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

Double Cardon Driveshaft?

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1
AdvRovr

AdvRovr

    NCLR Treasurer

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,317 posts
  • Lathrop
  • K6ADV
  • 97 Range Rover 4.0

The previous owner lifted my P38 appx 4" and left it on the stock driveshafts. They are quiet and fairly smooth when they're under accel or decel. But, any time they're in float above, say, 35 MPH they buzz whine quite a bit. 

 

He said it didn't bother him enough to change them over, but I'm pretty nervous the UJs are going to decide not to put up with that torture for much longer.

 

Is that a valid concern? If so, is a double cardon the way to go, or should I look into other options?

 

Thanks 


Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#2
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,093 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

That seems odd- you get it only under float?  And you're sure it's the driveshaft(s)?

 

I don't have any answers since I'm not a solid axle guy (though I will be watching for future information).  

 

My gut says if they've lasted this long and been OK I'd be tempted to just put in new U-joints and go for it.  Front shaft U-joint failures on Discos are certainly well-known so maybe you just picked the truck up on the tail-end of the service life and you'll be fine.  I'm not sure what U-joints sell for but I think a Tom Woods shaft is $3-400 so certainly they would be cheaper than that.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#3
AdvRovr

AdvRovr

    NCLR Treasurer

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,317 posts
  • Lathrop
  • K6ADV
  • 97 Range Rover 4.0
Say what? Not a solid axle guy? You've got two Rovers with solid axles and only one with independent.

No, I'm not completely sure, but it's unlike other drivetrain noises I've heard in the past, the seller believed it was DS, and it is lifted quite a bit. The guy owned this thing for 10 years and has had it built for a large portion of that. However, he did more slow speed crawling while I'll probably do more medium-duty exploration style stuff.

Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#4
Volkov

Volkov

    NCLR Vice President

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 226 posts
  • Vallejo
  • KK6UUO
  • 2006 LR3
  • 1977 Land Rover 101FC

Try to find a protractor and measure the angle of the driveshaft. 20 degrees is the maximum angle you can have for a shaft.



#5
Volkov

Volkov

    NCLR Vice President

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 226 posts
  • Vallejo
  • KK6UUO
  • 2006 LR3
  • 1977 Land Rover 101FC

http://www.pirate4x4...fe vs angle.jpg

 

Here is a chart of driveshaft angle versus life expectancy


Edited by Volkov, 21 December 2015 - 09:40 PM.


#6
GraemeWare

GraemeWare

    general old hooligan

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,029 posts

The previous owner lifted my P38 appx 4" and left it on the stock driveshafts. They are quiet and fairly smooth when they're under accel or decel. But, any time they're in float above, say, 35 MPH they buzz whine quite a bit. 

.......

Is that a valid concern? If so, is a double cardon the way to go, or should I look into other options?

 

Chad,

 

Noise on float is quite normal when running at extended angles.  I'm running Gwyn Lewis shafts (the ones we stock) which are 35 degree single cardon, on Katrina, and have the same issue if I want to .... by which I mean that I keep them slightly loaded to avoid that frequency of oscillation.  The clocking of the shaft ensures 5/7th harmonic cancellation for most of the time.  We do not recommend double cardon as that is added rotational mass and adds more problems than it solves.  Ever heard of a D1 or RRC smashing a gearbox when a shaft fails?  I haven't, and have had one fail myself.  I do know three people that have had a D2 demolish their gearbox on failure.  Grease every 250 miles (but don't worry if that becomes 500 on a long journey) and after wading, then you're golden.  Yes, there will be someone that contradicts this, but driveshafts will always fail, so ....

 

Graeme


Graeme Ware -- San Carlos, CA

1990 Range Rover Classic - LT230 Transfer box, Warn winch, 2" lift, 235/85-16 Dunlop MUD Rovers, "Blue Submarine"
1996 Discovery 1 (R380 Manual Transmission, Ashcroft under-drive, RoverWare rear bumper, 33x12.5-15 BFG ATs) -- we call her "Katrina" -- Fordyce 7.5 mile survivor
1999 Discovery 2 (D1 CDL Linkage, 265/75-16 BFG A/T KO, RoverWare front and rear bumper)
1993 Jaguar XJS convertible; 1971 Triumph GT6; 1959 Morris Minor convertible
other assorted British pot metal ...


#7
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,093 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

Chad,

 

Noise on float is quite normal when running at extended angles.  I'm running Gwyn Lewis shafts (the ones we stock) which are 35 degree single cardon, on Katrina, and have the same issue if I want to .... by which I mean that I keep them slightly loaded to avoid that frequency of oscillation.  The clocking of the shaft ensures 5/7th harmonic cancellation for most of the time.  We do not recommend double cardon as that is added rotational mass and adds more problems than it solves.  Ever heard of a D1 or RRC smashing a gearbox when a shaft fails?  I haven't, and have had one fail myself.  I do know three people that have had a D2 demolish their gearbox on failure.  Grease every 250 miles (but don't worry if that becomes 500 on a long journey) and after wading, then you're golden.  Yes, there will be someone that contradicts this, but driveshafts will always fail, so ....

 

Graeme

 

I was waiting on this - I was pretty sure I knew the Ware Theory on Driveshaft Joints.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#8
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,093 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

http://www.pirate4x4...fe vs angle.jpg

 

Here is a chart of driveshaft angle versus life expectancy

Forbidden - you don't have permission to access...


Edited by DHappel, 22 December 2015 - 07:04 AM.

Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#9
Volkov

Volkov

    NCLR Vice President

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 226 posts
  • Vallejo
  • KK6UUO
  • 2006 LR3
  • 1977 Land Rover 101FC

joint%20life%20vs%20angle.jpg



#10
Disco2Guy

Disco2Guy

    NCLR President 2013-2016

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,863 posts
  • KD2RVR
  • 2001 D2, heavily modified

Sorry Drew, still no love...


Brenton Corns
TREAD Lightly! Tread Trainer
 

4xFarAdventures.com
 

2001 D2

205,000 miles

 

post-472-0-05786100-1439104512.jpg


#11
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,093 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

I'm not even that interested in the chart, I really only want to see it because I can't.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#12
Volkov

Volkov

    NCLR Vice President

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 226 posts
  • Vallejo
  • KK6UUO
  • 2006 LR3
  • 1977 Land Rover 101FC

Hopefully the third time is the charm

 

Attached Files



#13
GraemeWare

GraemeWare

    general old hooligan

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,029 posts

Hopefully the third time is the charm

 

Drew,

 

I would challenge the data for that graph. The concave shape makes no sense.  Extrapolating off the end you could keep increasing angle and not affect joint life at all.  As the angle increases, wear must increase exponentially, not reduce exponentially.

 

Graeme


Edited by GraemeWare, 25 December 2015 - 11:05 AM.

Graeme Ware -- San Carlos, CA

1990 Range Rover Classic - LT230 Transfer box, Warn winch, 2" lift, 235/85-16 Dunlop MUD Rovers, "Blue Submarine"
1996 Discovery 1 (R380 Manual Transmission, Ashcroft under-drive, RoverWare rear bumper, 33x12.5-15 BFG ATs) -- we call her "Katrina" -- Fordyce 7.5 mile survivor
1999 Discovery 2 (D1 CDL Linkage, 265/75-16 BFG A/T KO, RoverWare front and rear bumper)
1993 Jaguar XJS convertible; 1971 Triumph GT6; 1959 Morris Minor convertible
other assorted British pot metal ...


#14
robg

robg

    Driver

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 216 posts

Both Ted and I switched to DC's from Tom Woods as we both run lifted P38's - Made a world of difference.

 

Make sure you lube them according to Wood's directions before installation.

 

Side but related question, have you modified your Panhard rods? If not I suggest doing this next.


LUCAS - Loose Unsoldered Connections and Splices

#15
lilcrawler

lilcrawler

    NCLR/AZLRO Club Member

  • NCLR Guest+
  • PipPipPip
  • 950 posts
  • KI6WSS
  • 2004 Land Rover Discovery

Both Ted and I switched to DC's from Tom Woods as we both run lifted P38's - Made a world of difference.

Make sure you lube them according to Wood's directions before installation.

Side but related question, have you modified your Panhard rods? If not I suggest doing this next.



My TW only lasted two months before the centering ball failed. They are rebuilding it for free, but still that's not great. Just something to take into account...
Tyler
2004 DII- Not modified heavily enough

I get below 15 mpg on Fuelly!
Posted Image

#16
JFuller

JFuller

    NCLR Guest

  • NCLR Guest
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,103 posts
Mr Woods drive shafts aren't the only game in town. If you're near west sacramento drive line services will make whatever you want for a reasonable price. Just sayin.

#17
ndamico

ndamico

    KK6TBF

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,183 posts
  • Sacramento, CA
  • KK6TBF
  • 2010 LR4
  • 1995 RRC LWB

Mr Woods drive shafts aren't the only game in town. If you're near west sacramento drive line services will make whatever you want for a reasonable price. Just sayin.

That place does nice work indeed.

Sent from my SM-T807V using Tapatalk

Nick

2010 LR4 HSE-Lux/HD. Compos w/ Toyo Open County AT2 265/65R18, IIDTool, Baja Rack.

1995 RRC LWB.  3" RTE Lift/Bumpers, 7100SB Shocks, 255x85R16 Toyo MT's, Mantec Snorkel, Ashcroft Lockers/Axles/CV's/4.12 Gears, GBR Driveshafts & Thrust Bolts, LT230, QT Diff Guards, Voyager Rack, Winch, Sliders, Dual Batteries, ARB Twin Compressor, Kenwood D710G HAM Radio, Xantrex Inverter, Swing Away & Sliders.

 

My Rover Pics


#18
AdvRovr

AdvRovr

    NCLR Treasurer

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,317 posts
  • Lathrop
  • K6ADV
  • 97 Range Rover 4.0
Graeme, trying to distill your post. Is your dislike of DCs due to:
1) the extra weight making DC joints more prone to failure, or
2) the quality of workmanship/parts on DC joints available for Rovers making these DC joints more prone to failure, or
3) the extra weight making catastrophic damage more likely in the event of failure?

DCs are run from the factory on some vehicles so it seems like there must be a way to make them reasonably reliable? Greasing every 250 miles seems very excessive. And, would a DC really be less reliable than a standard joint bring run well beyond its max angles?

I'll check out Drive Line Services. I also saw a place on yelp in San Jose, I think it was South Bay Drive Line, that has great reviews. Probably will talk to both and see who I like best.

Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#19
ndamico

ndamico

    KK6TBF

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,183 posts
  • Sacramento, CA
  • KK6TBF
  • 2010 LR4
  • 1995 RRC LWB

check out the yelp reviews for driveline service in west sac.  they rebalanced my GBR shaft.


Nick

2010 LR4 HSE-Lux/HD. Compos w/ Toyo Open County AT2 265/65R18, IIDTool, Baja Rack.

1995 RRC LWB.  3" RTE Lift/Bumpers, 7100SB Shocks, 255x85R16 Toyo MT's, Mantec Snorkel, Ashcroft Lockers/Axles/CV's/4.12 Gears, GBR Driveshafts & Thrust Bolts, LT230, QT Diff Guards, Voyager Rack, Winch, Sliders, Dual Batteries, ARB Twin Compressor, Kenwood D710G HAM Radio, Xantrex Inverter, Swing Away & Sliders.

 

My Rover Pics


#20
GraemeWare

GraemeWare

    general old hooligan

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,029 posts

Graeme, trying to distill your post. Is your dislike of DCs due to:
1) the extra weight making DC joints more prone to failure, or
2) the quality of workmanship/parts on DC joints available for Rovers making these DC joints more prone to failure, or
3) the extra weight making catastrophic damage more likely in the event of failure?

DCs are run from the factory on some vehicles so it seems like there must be a way to make them reasonably reliable? Greasing every 250 miles seems very excessive. And, would a DC really be less reliable than a standard joint bring run well beyond its max angles?

I'll check out Drive Line Services. I also saw a place on yelp in San Jose, I think it was South Bay Drive Line, that has great reviews. Probably will talk to both and see who I like best.

 

Chad,

 

All of the above, in the order 1, 3, 2.  And also they are not necessary for the majority of Rover builds.  A double cardon naturally has greater play due to the centering arrangement to ensure that both joints move equally.  Some don't have a grease point for that center ball, and those that do are really hard to ensure grease actually gets in there.  Once that wears, the whole thing is out of balance, and basically shakes itself apart with high frequency vibration (the two out-of-phase joints cause higher harmonics).  If you measure what you need for almost any Rover, it is way within what a single joint can do.  You never get to the 25 degrees that a standard single joint can do, and with 30 degree GKN "ultra" joints can allow, double joints are unnecessary.  Personally. I like the GKN joints and will pay extra for them.  Never had one fail that wasn't abused.  "Abused?"  Yes, 40,000 miles of road and wheeling, without greasing, on a 2" lifted Classic.  I recently threw away the evidence (the spider looked like it had been welded it had got so hot).

 

250 mile greasing interval might be excessive, but 250 becomes 500, becomes 1000 .... and then the next thing you know things go bang.  We're lucky in California that we don't have water and salt, but for 5 minutes under a vehicle, I'll er on the side of caution.  Changing a gearbox is the worst job on a Rover, in my opinion.

 

DCs are rarely fitted on standard vehicles for flex reasons, it is for vibration reasons.  This is why the D2 has one and the D1/RRC/Defender doesn't.  By clocking the UJs most harmonics can be designed out, and adding weight to stop pinion vibration can help too (but how many of us still have those fitted?).

 

South Bay Driveline are great, if you catch them on a good day.  Steve knows what he is doing, but their prices are usually rather high.

 

A good driveshaft is usually painted blue (!!!).  Not all drivelines are built equally.

Note in this picture the position of the involute splines.  Far better when off-roading.

 

Involute_Spline_110mm_1__54496.143337461

 

 

Regards,

 

Graeme


Edited by GraemeWare, 26 December 2015 - 10:20 AM.

Graeme Ware -- San Carlos, CA

1990 Range Rover Classic - LT230 Transfer box, Warn winch, 2" lift, 235/85-16 Dunlop MUD Rovers, "Blue Submarine"
1996 Discovery 1 (R380 Manual Transmission, Ashcroft under-drive, RoverWare rear bumper, 33x12.5-15 BFG ATs) -- we call her "Katrina" -- Fordyce 7.5 mile survivor
1999 Discovery 2 (D1 CDL Linkage, 265/75-16 BFG A/T KO, RoverWare front and rear bumper)
1993 Jaguar XJS convertible; 1971 Triumph GT6; 1959 Morris Minor convertible
other assorted British pot metal ...





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users