Jump to content

Welcome to NCLR - Northern California Land Rover Club
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

Smog test

- - - - - Range Rover RRC smog O2 sensor catalytic converter

  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1
Lauroness

Lauroness

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 204 posts
  • Fairfield, CA
  • 1998 Discovery LE

So I took the ol Rangie to get a smog. Well, she's a "gross polluter" what ever that means. Spoke with the tech and he said I should:

1) do a compression test. Said I should first start there first so I don't waste money on a bad engine.
2) the cats the previous owner put on it told me "they're new" well they were just not CA compliance. Will need to get relacememts. Does anyone know if I can get the cats and weld them myself. No reason to pay a shop when I have a perfectly working Mig here.
3) said to do the tune up on it just to make sure it at its top tier working conditions.

Well I went there too optimistic thinking it'd just pass with flying colors. I guess an 88 doesn't just pass easily? The discovery went in right after and that passed like a brand new 2017 =)

Not sure what I'm seeking but thought I'd share.


  • RedRover likes this

#2
GraemeWare

GraemeWare

    general old hooligan

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,025 posts

So I took the ol Rangie to get a smog. Well, she's a "gross polluter" what ever that means. Spoke with the tech and he said I should:

1) do a compression test. Said I should first start there first so I don't waste money on a bad engine.
2) the cats the previous owner put on it told me "they're new" well they were just not CA compliance. Will need to get relacememts. Does anyone know if I can get the cats and weld them myself. No reason to pay a shop when I have a perfectly working Mig here.
3) said to do the tune up on it just to make sure it at its top tier working conditions.

Well I went there too optimistic thinking it'd just pass with flying colors. I guess an 88 doesn't just pass easily? The discovery went in right after and that passed like a brand new 2017 =)

Not sure what I'm seeking but thought I'd share.

 

Post the numbers so we can see what is happening.  Did it fail the emissions test or did it fail visual?  If visual, do you have details (receipt) for when the cats were replaced?  Depending upon when, they may be grandfathered in and not need to be CA compliant.

 

Regards,

 

Graeme


Graeme Ware -- San Carlos, CA

1990 Range Rover Classic - LT230 Transfer box, Warn winch, 2" lift, 235/85-16 Dunlop MUD Rovers, "Blue Submarine"
1996 Discovery 1 (R380 Manual Transmission, Ashcroft under-drive, RoverWare rear bumper, 33x12.5-15 BFG ATs) -- we call her "Katrina" -- Fordyce 7.5 mile survivor
1999 Discovery 2 (D1 CDL Linkage, 265/75-16 BFG A/T KO, RoverWare front and rear bumper)
1993 Jaguar XJS convertible; 1971 Triumph GT6; 1959 Morris Minor convertible
other assorted British pot metal ...


#3
Lauroness

Lauroness

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 204 posts
  • Fairfield, CA
  • 1998 Discovery LE
I have no details on when the cats were purchased. As for the test, they are listed as "modified" all visuals were passed except the cats

First is idle:
Rpm:704
%CO2: MEAS 11.4
%O2: MEAS 4.4
HC: MAX 120, GP 270, MEAS 1570
CO: MAX 1, GP 2.5, MEAS 1.25

2500 rpm:
Rpm: 2512
%CO2: 13.9
%O2: 1.4
HC: MAX 140, GP 290, MEAS 392
CO: MAX 1, GP 2.5, MEAS .31

#4
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,085 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

I have no idea what the numbers mean so I've got nothing for you there.  I do however need to either take my '88 in for smog this month or non-op it.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#5
Jethro

Jethro

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 707 posts
  • Roseville
  • KK6ZBT
  • '11 LR4
  • '96 Discovery

I have no idea what the numbers mean so I've got nothing for you there. I do however need to either take my '88 in for smog this month or non-op it.

You should get help from the seller on where he's been getting it tested and go back...

#6
GraemeWare

GraemeWare

    general old hooligan

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,025 posts

I have no details on when the cats were purchased. As for the test, they are listed as "modified" all visuals were passed except the cats

First is idle:
Rpm:704
%CO2: MEAS 11.4
%O2: MEAS 4.4
HC: MAX 120, GP 270, MEAS 1570
CO: MAX 1, GP 2.5, MEAS 1.25

2500 rpm:
Rpm: 2512
%CO2: 13.9
%O2: 1.4
HC: MAX 140, GP 290, MEAS 392
CO: MAX 1, GP 2.5, MEAS .31

 

I'd say you have bigger problems than the cats alone.  That appears to be massively over-fueling.  It looks like it either had a cold engine at idle (which I assume wasn't the case), no O2 sensors connected (or functioning), or was in open-loop for some other reason.  Internet diagnosis is hard, but it could even be firing on less than 8 cylinders.

 

Regards,

 

Graeme


Graeme Ware -- San Carlos, CA

1990 Range Rover Classic - LT230 Transfer box, Warn winch, 2" lift, 235/85-16 Dunlop MUD Rovers, "Blue Submarine"
1996 Discovery 1 (R380 Manual Transmission, Ashcroft under-drive, RoverWare rear bumper, 33x12.5-15 BFG ATs) -- we call her "Katrina" -- Fordyce 7.5 mile survivor
1999 Discovery 2 (D1 CDL Linkage, 265/75-16 BFG A/T KO, RoverWare front and rear bumper)
1993 Jaguar XJS convertible; 1971 Triumph GT6; 1959 Morris Minor convertible
other assorted British pot metal ...


#7
Lauroness

Lauroness

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 204 posts
  • Fairfield, CA
  • 1998 Discovery LE

You should get help from the seller on where he's been getting it tested and go back...


No help from him since it was a Washington vehicle. They are smog except.

#8
Lauroness

Lauroness

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 204 posts
  • Fairfield, CA
  • 1998 Discovery LE

I'd say you have bigger problems than the cats alone. That appears to be massively over-fueling. It looks like it either had a cold engine at idle (which I assume wasn't the case), no O2 sensors connected (or functioning), or was in open-loop for some other reason. Internet diagnosis is hard, but it could even be firing on less than 8 cylinders.

Regards,

Graeme

Yes internet diagnostics are difficult. Graeme, you seem to be aware tho if it's potential issues. Would you suggest I follow the steps I listed. Compression, cats, then tune up (e.g o2 plugs wires rotor and cap) I'm trying think what else would be a fuel factor to cause it to run rich. The dude mention that it may have a miss fire.

Edited by Lauroness, 06 March 2017 - 09:19 PM.


#9
GraemeWare

GraemeWare

    general old hooligan

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,025 posts

Yes internet diagnostics are difficult. Graeme, you seem to be aware tho if it's potential issues. Would you suggest I follow the steps I listed. Compression, cats, then tune up (e.g o2 plugs wires rotor and cap) I'm trying think what else would be a fuel factor to cause it to run rich. The dude mention that it may have a miss fire.

 

Misfire is highly likely (or no-fire on one cylinder).  I'd start by plugging in a good OBD2 monitor and seeing whether it is in open or closed loop (it will never pass in open loop), and watch the O2 sensor outputs toggling.   There may even be no O2s connected.  There may also be codes present that tell you what could be going on.  Plugs and leads may solve the problem, but it would be better to find the problem before just changing them.  If one cylinder isn't firing, pulling that plug lead off while running will cause no change of idle (be really careful doing that; there are lots of spinning bits that can bite!).  Until the HC is way lower than that you don't want to change the cats as they will be destroyed in no time.

 

Regards,

 

Graeme


  • RedRover likes this

Graeme Ware -- San Carlos, CA

1990 Range Rover Classic - LT230 Transfer box, Warn winch, 2" lift, 235/85-16 Dunlop MUD Rovers, "Blue Submarine"
1996 Discovery 1 (R380 Manual Transmission, Ashcroft under-drive, RoverWare rear bumper, 33x12.5-15 BFG ATs) -- we call her "Katrina" -- Fordyce 7.5 mile survivor
1999 Discovery 2 (D1 CDL Linkage, 265/75-16 BFG A/T KO, RoverWare front and rear bumper)
1993 Jaguar XJS convertible; 1971 Triumph GT6; 1959 Morris Minor convertible
other assorted British pot metal ...


#10
AdvRovr

AdvRovr

    NCLR Treasurer

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,315 posts
  • Lathrop
  • K6ADV
  • 97 Range Rover 4.0
Graeme, where would one find the OBD2 port on a 1988 vehicle? 😉

You could use an inline spark tester that will show when firing.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
  • dcproven likes this

Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#11
RedRover

RedRover

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Web Administrator
  • 3,401 posts
  • Santa Clara, CA
  • KJ6MQI
  • 1992 Range Rover Classic
  • 2012 Range Rover
  • 2012 Land Rover LR4

Graeme, where would one find the OBD2 port on a 1988 vehicle?
 

 

beat me to it.   B)


Jared (KJ6MQI)
1992 Range Rover Classic - Portofino Red
2012 Range Rover HSE - Santorini Black

 


#12
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,085 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

beat me to it.   B)

Ha....just what I was thinking!


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#13
Lauroness

Lauroness

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 204 posts
  • Fairfield, CA
  • 1998 Discovery LE
Ok, so what I understood. If the cylinder is missfireing or not firing at all..the motor with still start and idle and I can drive it? I didn't know they even could. The idle seems ok but I guess it's not good enough. Sounded to me like if the motor was just old. I'll have to take a look into that. I'll be doing the compression test today. From what I've found online 140 with a 10% difference warm engine is good? Having issues finding this information online. What I did find tho was; the engine number and compression ratio is stamped between cylinders 3 and 5? We'll see. I think the full ignition tune up is on Rovers north for 165$. Guess it's worth a shot right.

#14
AdvRovr

AdvRovr

    NCLR Treasurer

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,315 posts
  • Lathrop
  • K6ADV
  • 97 Range Rover 4.0
Yes, 140 is fine, and small differences are normal. And yes, it will still run with misfires (anecdote time, the Tahoe just had an injector fail and was getting absolutely no fuel to cylinder 7. It was barely noticeable at idle and still drove with a decent amount of power)

Before you buy anything, do the compression test first.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#15
Lauroness

Lauroness

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 204 posts
  • Fairfield, CA
  • 1998 Discovery LE

Yes, 140 is fine, and small differences are normal. And yes, it will still run with misfires (anecdote time, the Tahoe just had an injector fail and was getting absolutely no fuel to cylinder 7. It was barely noticeable at idle and still drove with a decent amount of power)

Before you buy anything, do the compression test first.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


That's so awesome guess it's the beauty of a v8, it'll get you home. The power difference didn't really make me wonder since I was told the 3.5 was just slow. Makes sense why Shasta pass was a slow 35mph climb in the trucker lane. I'll keep all posted with results on the compression.
  • RedRover likes this

#16
AdvRovr

AdvRovr

    NCLR Treasurer

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,315 posts
  • Lathrop
  • K6ADV
  • 97 Range Rover 4.0
Haha...Yes....Classics are a whole different driving experience. Get your old fashioned drivers cap and gloves, grab a cigar, turn off your phone, and hang out in the right lane. 😂

My 3.9 was a dog, too. It's just the way they are.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#17
JFuller

JFuller

    NCLR Guest

  • NCLR Guest
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,102 posts

If you have no idea about the mileage since it's last tune up that would be a good place to start along with compression check.  Take a look at your air filter to be sure it's clean.  And since it hasn't even been mentioned yet, for reasons i don't understand, check your timing!!  I assume the tech did that but the PO could have it all wrong.  Mine once had a bad crank position sensor which caused it to fail smog with similar numbers (this is anecdotal,  please don't assume that I am saying your crank position sensor is bad, it could be but I have no idea).  As Graeme said, you running way too rich.  You can see because hydrocarbons(unburned fuel) are way up and O2 is almost non existent. Meaning that your burning up all the oxygen and there ins't enough left to completely burn the fuel.  Sadly, if it's been running like this for long your cats are toasted, CA compliant or not.  Best of luck finding the problem.   


  • RedRover likes this

#18
Lauroness

Lauroness

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 204 posts
  • Fairfield, CA
  • 1998 Discovery LE

If you have no idea about the mileage since it's last tune up that would be a good place to start along with compression check. Take a look at your air filter to be sure it's clean. And since it hasn't even been mentioned yet, for reasons i don't understand, check your timing!! I assume the tech did that but the PO could have it all wrong. Mine once had a bad crank position sensor which caused it to fail smog with similar numbers (this is anecdotal, please don't assume that I am saying your crank position sensor is bad, it could be but I have no idea). As Graeme said, you running way too rich. You can see because hydrocarbons(unburned fuel) are way up and O2 is almost non existent. Meaning that your burning up all the oxygen and there ins't enough left to completely burn the fuel. Sadly, if it's been running like this for long your cats are toasted, CA compliant or not. Best of luck finding the problem.


I would assume the cats are toast. I did drive it essentially from the Canadian border to bring it to our lovely Bay Area. Yes, I shall get the timing checked out. I wasn't 100% believing it'd pass smog but didn't know where or what to start checking. After I check the comp, I plan to do a complete tune up. I might as well add the crank sensor to the list too.

Does anyone have the answer to my question about purchasing cats and welding them on my self?

#19
RedRover

RedRover

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Web Administrator
  • 3,401 posts
  • Santa Clara, CA
  • KJ6MQI
  • 1992 Range Rover Classic
  • 2012 Range Rover
  • 2012 Land Rover LR4

Does anyone have the answer to my question about purchasing cats and welding them on my self?

 

Wish I had the answer.  We purchased a new y-pipe that included the two cats from Magnaflow.  I do miss that they don't say Land Rover on them anymore, but otherwise they have been an acceptable replacement.

 

I would imagine one could weld new cats in and just cut out the old ones...


Jared (KJ6MQI)
1992 Range Rover Classic - Portofino Red
2012 Range Rover HSE - Santorini Black

 


#20
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,085 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

On the compression test you're looking for similar numbers across all cylinders more than any specific number.  140 is a good approximate but don't worry too much about the actual number so much as the difference between them.  If you see 120, 130, 70, 110, 120.... you know you've got a problem.

 

As to welding in your own cats, I see no reason you can't.  I wouldn't hesitate to do it myself.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Range Rover, RRC, smog, O2 sensor, catalytic converter

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users