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let's talk heat

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37 replies to this topic

#21
AlysonH

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Hollister's looking at a balmy 103 degrees Saturday.

#22
AdvRovr

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Don, you have a GEMS 4.6 right? 

 

This is from the P38 RAVE since I believe the P38 is the only vehicle that got the 4.6 GEMS from the factory: 

 

"The thermostat is closed at temperatures below approximately 80 °C (176 °F). When the coolant temperature reaches between 80 to 84 °C (176 to 183 °F) the thermostat starts to open and is fully open at approximately 96 °C (204 °F). In this condition the full flow of coolant is directed through the radiator."

 

If it's not fully open until 204F, and you're pushing hard up a grade in hot weather, I don't think 215F is unreasonable or outside the design criteria. I don't see anything in the RAVE that specifies the temperature for when the gauge starts moving up from the center, though.

 

Link: http://www.landrover...ange-Rover.pdf


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#23
DHappel

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Just roadkill it and run no hood :P

I was thinking about that.... :D


Don
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#24
DHappel

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Don, you have a GEMS 4.6 right? 

 

This is from the P38 RAVE since I believe the P38 is the only vehicle that got the 4.6 GEMS from the factory: 

 

"The thermostat is closed at temperatures below approximately 80 °C (176 °F). When the coolant temperature reaches between 80 to 84 °C (176 to 183 °F) the thermostat starts to open and is fully open at approximately 96 °C (204 °F). In this condition the full flow of coolant is directed through the radiator."

 

If it's not fully open until 204F, and you're pushing hard up a grade in hot weather, I don't think 215F is unreasonable or outside the design criteria. I don't see anything in the RAVE that specifies the temperature for when the gauge starts moving up from the center, though.

 

Link: http://www.landrover...ange-Rover.pdf

Well there you go - that's what I was looking for.    That also explains why the temp needle never moves.  They wanted it to run that hot.

 

Still, I'm not super stoked about it being that warm and aside from the engine heat, I'm looking to reduce under-hood temps.  My heat-soaked starter for example is due to high under hood temps.  Nick's recent melted coil also.  (not his first)  I don't know, but suspect, my PS failure may also be related to high ambient heat.  So the louvers should still help with that. 

 

We shall see come this weekend.  I wish I had taken some under hood readings with my IR temp gun but I don't carry that around with me and I won't have much chance to play with it before installing the louvers.  'After' data isn't so useful without 'before'.  


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#25
DHappel

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hood louvers would push air in moving the heat downwards where the starter and other stuff like the ZF is, wouldn't it?

I am not sure I would do that modification, is all I am saying, but if you try, please tell us how does it perform...

No, they extract air in the same way a cowl induction hood does.

 

There is a low pressure area of air at the base of the windshield and above the hood on most vehicles.  That means the air under the hood is at higher pressure.  The louvers aren't scoops, trying to force air in.  They are a vent that allows the high pressure air under the hood to escape to the low pressure area above near the windshield.


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Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#26
DHappel

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A quick search and I came across this video.   Coincidentally, this is the place I got my louvers from.  When I was buying them the person I spoke with mentioned the company owner had a Discovery.  Well....I guess he does!

 


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Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#27
GraemeWare

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I think Clarkson's answer on the Bolivia Challenge is the way to go .....

 

Regards,

 

Graeme


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#28
DHappel

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I think Clarkson's answer on the Bolivia Challenge is the way to go .....

 

Regards,

 

Graeme

It's been a while....but I think that may be the same as the RoadKill heat dissipation system.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#29
AlysonH

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Is that a jaguar hood ornament on the hood??

#30
DHappel

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Is that a jaguar hood ornament on the hood??

I have no comment on that.  The guy is from the wrong coast, so there's no accounting for his taste.


Don
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'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#31
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Louvers are installed.  I'll start a new thread in the modification section of the forum.


Don
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'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#32
lithium1330

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so, my D90 was overing at the MORG - it was a very hot day (somewhere 105 - 110F) and not enough air was through the radiator on the slow climbs. And at low speed, I am not sure the viscous fan was moving enough air either. That's my guess. 

My ultragauge (UG) was reading 200F when the "dummy gauge" needle starts to move to the center,... by 220-225, it was about 3/4 of the way up the gauge. I stopped and turned off the engine, pop the hood for a cool down. What a pain. 

 

On the drive out of Hollister, we got caught up in some stop & go traffic, and the UG was reading engine temp as high as 212 - turned the heater on and the temp stay put.

Once we got on 101, cruising along at about 75mph, the UG was still showing 206, with intake temp at about 136F. @RedRover said his RR dash was showing ambient temp of 104, I think. And the UG engine temp didn't read below 200 until I got to San Jose, where ambient temp _felt_ cooler than South & Gilroy area. 

 

When I got home, I took out my trusty Harbor Freight IR gun and took some temps (trusty because it turns on; I cannot vouch for its accuracy):

top radiator hose & t-stat housing: 190 (after about 5min turning off engine at home)

The floor board & batt box: 138F, 

seat rails: 132 

plastic center console (and anything plastic inside) 127 - 130, my iphone was sitting on the console and it displayed a "too hot to use" warning. 

headliner vinyl: 127

headers: 370 - 380

exhaust pipe right after the cat: I think around 470

 

The overheat is just plain annoying now, and evidently it's fairly common with other Defenders.

So, i think I need to replace the viscous fan with a pair of 12" electric fans... and go from there. 

I would love to run a bigger aluminum radiator, but they're spendy.... so, save that in the back pocket. 

And I'll be getting some Kool King from Home Depot (similar to dynamat, but less $$) and line every exposed metal surface... that will be the winter project! 


Edited by lithium1330, 03 September 2017 - 07:28 AM.

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Chris

#33
lithium1330

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Did more reading last night on overheating, in between making pigtails for Carling switches, I would hate to think the 3mos old viscous clutch is bad... but they do happen.

Someone in UAE had similar overheating issues driving in the desert. Like most, he replaced everything cooling related and still get 210F driving. 

In his case, his solution was a bigger fixed fan...

http://www.defenders...html#post190698

 

What I'm not sure about is... if ambient temp is...20 or 10F hotter than normal (104 instead of 84 or even 94), would overall cooling system (and engine temp) increase by as much? When 75mph driving down to MORG in morning (ambient at 80-someF) yield a 190F engine temp... it's not unreasonable to think afternoon (ambient at 100-someF) yield a 206 engine temp. And I supposed a more efficient radiator could bring that 206F down to 200F. Maybe? 

 

Picture of the fixed fan from post..

And pictures of pigtails... bc why not. :) 

Attached Files


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Chris

#34
lithium1330

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Did more testing today... of course, traffic was light today... as i suspect everyone was at the mall or movies. 

Anyways, driving around town at 25 - 30mph, the engine temp stayed around 186 - 195, ambient temp was around 95-98F. As soon as I get to about 35mph, temp would drop back to about 186-9-ish. 

When I got home, I used the IR gun and found the top of radiator hose & t-stat housing around 190 - 198-ish. The lower radiator hose fluctuated between 147 - 180. 

I could hear the fan noise fluctuate also between quiet and a little louder. It was definitely moving air (how much, I don't exactly know - I was able to let a piece of paper "stick" to the front of radiator). After about 15min of idling in the driveway with hood opened and me IR temp reading everything in the engine bay, the UG showed engine temp had creeped up to about 210F. 

So, more data points. 

 

Now, I'm thinking maybe I need to look at an uprated radiator. :-/ 

Oh, and I still don't have working A/C! Fall can't come soon enough! 


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Chris

#35
DHappel

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Since your truck isn't heavily mod'ed I would expect the stock cooling system should be able to maintain temps.  Then again, from what I know they were somewhat marginal originally; she's a few years old now; and you do have some mods including the 4.6 motor in place of the 4.0.  On top of that late-model vehicles are designed to run hotter than older ones for emissions reasons.  Throw all that plus a 100*+ day and I can see overheating happening even if everything was working to original spec.

 

It doesn't sound like you actually overheated but were heading that way.  Probably a good call to shut her down and not risk that new motor.

 

I am a 'fan' of the dual electric fan set-up but I don't know if that's going to fully resolve your issue.  You may end up having to combine that with a HD radiator to simply get more cooling capacity.  

 

That said, I have not done any research into this yet, particularly with regards to a Defender so you may get a better informed opinion over on Dsource.

 

Why I like electric fans:

While I do think a good dual electric fan will move more air than the stock viscous, more than anything I like them because YOU can control them.  With a VC fan, you have no manual control.  In fact, you can't really even test it to be sure it's working 100%; you just sort of have to have faith.  A properly set up electric (could be duals, could be a large single) with a good shroud (critical) can be wired for both automatic (thermostatic) and manual operation.  With manual control you can be pre-emptive in deploying it if you know you're approaching a high-heat situation.  You can also shut it down if you are doing a water crossing to avoid damage.  And it can stay running after you've shut down the motor to help bring temps down at rest.  Lastly, it eliminates a fair amount of parasitic drag on an already less-than-powerhouse of a motor.   All of those things are why I much prefer electric to engine-driven fans.

 

Here's a pretty good comparison of fans and just how much power it takes to drive them:

 


Don
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#36
Disco2Guy

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This weekend I hit 220* a few times going up Hwy 4 to Corral Hollow, and for a little bit on the Altamont Pass coming home. Outside temps were between 104-108*.


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#37
lithium1330

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@DHappel - agreed on the uprated radiator and possibly dual elect fans. 

I emailed Allisport, they manufacturer aluminum, uprated radiators for many cars & trucks, incl. rovers.

The owner emailed back recommending viscous fan over electric... and when I asked why, he replied: "no electric fan has capacity to match a good viscous" 

Though, that's teh problem... there is no easy way to tell if/when the viscous is good vs. just meh! 

Like you said, I do plan to upgrade the radiator (it was also what the shop suggested after the new engine)... Open question is stick with viscous or also upgrade to electric fans. 

 

At this point, fall & winter are coming... and that tend to push these "overheat" projects to back burner.

But it's also best time to take things apart and get things ready for next year.


Chris

#38
aebrownleeiv

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While I'm not a Rover V8 expert, I would agree with what you've heard.

 

I think I'm going to try some hood louvers.  Certainly not for everybody but easy and should help lower under-hood temps which will be a good thing given I've recently killed a PS pump (likey due to heat) and heat-soaked a starter to the point it wouldn't engage.  Additionally the lower-hood temps should lower the engine temps for the double whammy.   I can always come back to the traditional techniques later to fight engine temp if needed.

While I realize this is an older post, I just wanted to add my two cents on the matter. 

Years ago, I was needing to haul a military generator back to the midwest after my father had purchased it at an auction out here. Of course, he wanted it back ASAP, didn't want to deal with a shipping company, and it was the middle of August. So I was going to end up towing this 7000# monstrosity down I80 with my 3/4 ton Suburban. 

The way GM put the motor in that body (This is the 7.4 liter/454CI), there wasn't much room along the sides of the motor for any heat to escape, and the rear of the hood didn't let anything vent up the windshield. Knowing that ventilation was my limiting factor having taken it to Moab a few times, I snagged some plastic vents for a JK off of Amazon, and cut in to my hood. 

I did, however, do before and after comparisons after running down 680 here on a 100 degree day. While my motor temps didn't drop (because I wasn't pulling a load anyway for the tests) the temperature of my alternator fell by 31 degrees, my power steering by almost 20, and the top of the intake manifold by a good 30-35. It made a massive difference, as the air was allowed to come through the engine bay at a faster rate, because it has an escape route that wasn't trying to wind it's way past the exhaust manifolds. 

Was able to haul the massive generator back without an issue, and never once has my transmission start getting "too hot" along the trip. 

I don't think ALL vehicles can benefit from this, but there are certainly some where it doesn't seem like the air has a good escape route after it comes in through the radiator. So it worked for me, and it is fun to watch heat rise out of the vents while sitting in traffic. 

And yes, this thing was like pulling a brick. 


Edited by aebrownleeiv, 25 September 2017 - 06:18 AM.

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