Jump to content

Welcome to NCLR - Northern California Land Rover Club
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

Air Suspension and Fuses

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1
erinw.rrc

erinw.rrc

    NCLR President

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Santa Clara
  • KA6DSC
  • 2012 D4 HSE
  • 1992 RRC aka RedRover

I'm looking over some technical things we want to know before the Rebelle Rally and one of those is what to do if the air suspension goes out.  

 

I know this happened to Enrique on his LR3 in Baja.  He was able to fill it up and then pull a fuse.  I want to know how to do that.  

 

Anyone with LR4 knowledge on how to get the car off the bump stops, then get the compressor full, the air bags full and then which fuse to pull.

 

And go!


  • RON CT110 likes this

Erin W.
"Jack Sparrow" 2012 Ipanema Sand LR4 HSE LUX; 18" LR3 Wheels, Johnson Rods, 30mm spacers, LT275/65R18 Cooper Discoverer A/T3, Baja Rack, Custom rear Kaymar bumper, factory Warn Winch kit for LR4, factory brush guard, Iron Man rear light, Hi-lift jack (recently mounted :D)
IMG_1172.JPG


#2
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,965 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

You have a gap tool, right?  If so, forget about pulling fuses.

 

If you've thrown a code and the thing drops to the bumpstops, use the Gap tool to manually raise it.   You can inflate all corners, each end, or each corner separately.   If the computers are freaked out and try to put it back on the bumps when you put it back to normal, raise it again and put it in build mode.  You'll get a red 'tippy rover' warning light on the dash and a regular warning gong, but it will stay where you put it as build mode overrides the suspension computer.

 

Try practicing with the Gap tool in the driveway.  It takes a little playing to figure it out, but so long as you don't mess with the car config files you can't mess up anything too badly.

 

If you bring it to the MORG we can mess with it then.  I'll have my D1, but better to work with your own truck anyway.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#3
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,965 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

FWIW, pulling fuses isn't nearly as useful as the Gap tool.  I'd have to look up the fuse numbers but what that does is let you get it to regular or off road height then by pulling a certain combo of fuses you disable the air valves so it can't lower.  It doesn't let you manually inflate it like the tool does.  No reason to mess with the fuses if you can put it in build mode via the tool.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#4
DiscoDavis

DiscoDavis

    Driver

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 325 posts
  • East Bay, CA
  • 2006 Discovery 3
  • 1995 Discovery
  • 1990 110

I disagree. 

 

I wired up the main power fuse for the EAS control with a simple switch so that you could pop the hood and flip the switch and it would lock the EAS in that height, however in some cases throwing several fault codes (can be cleared). Using build mode in the GAP tool was about the same, just more menus and buttons to hit. Fuse F3E was the LR3 number. There is another one in the cab fuse box that can be switched for an emergency halt to EAS activity, IE stop it from dropping to bump stops the moment there is a problem, just trigger the switch from the drivers seat. I think F26 but never trusted it as much as the F3 which stops power to the complete loop. Both switches are easily faster to get to than booting up the tool, and I wouldn't leave it plugged in ever without a second battery and a relocation loom, too easy to kick. 

 

Something essential for working under the car, I would not trust the GAP tool to 100% keep the vehicle from shifting on the ground or on jacks, hence using a switched fuse as a manual backup, you know that you manually stopped power to the system controller. 

 

There was also a thread or a few posts on Expo or Disco3uk about some people adding switches to the relay for the air compressor IE forcing it to turn on and raise the car. In at least one case someone was able to drill a hole in a spare relay and use a pencil to force it on. Some added schrader valves to the struts to manually fill each bag from an external compressor. 


Edited by DiscoDavis, 30 August 2017 - 06:56 AM.

:lr:

2006 Discovery 3(Build Thread)

1995 Discovery 

1990 110

 

Instagram: CondorDavis

 

23669857085_fe30f0934c.jpg


#5
AlysonH

AlysonH

    NCLR Secretary

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 818 posts
  • San Jose
  • KJ6MIO
  • 2003 DII (weekend)
  • 2012 Range Rover (work)
I thought Enrique had the gap tool and even though he was able to raise it it still collapsed. He had to do some combination of gap tool and pulling fuses to get it to stay up. At least that's what I recall from that thread.

#6
AdvRovr

AdvRovr

    NCLR Treasurer

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,302 posts
  • Lathrop
  • K6ADV
  • 97 Range Rover 4.0
The P38 had an aftermarket solution that mounted by the valve block in the engine bay that had a bank of Schrader valves and pressure gauges so you could manually inflate and control each corner.

As I learned from Don recently, the D3/4/RRS design has distributed the valve blocks, but I'd still think that idea is possible with some tweaks.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#7
dcproven

dcproven

    David (NCLR082)

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 225 posts
  • KK6NDY
  • 1995 LWB RRC
  • 1977 Series III

In Enrique case, if I remember correctly (big if), the compressor was weak and some sensor was out of range, so the sensor will force the system to change while the compressor will get very tired and eventually not being able to do anything. Clearing codes, did only that, then they will show up again.

So the idea was to inflate the suspension when compressor was cold and then pull F3, that will keep it there for a while...

Again, it's been more than 2 weeks, so actual facts may differ.



#8
erinw.rrc

erinw.rrc

    NCLR President

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Santa Clara
  • KA6DSC
  • 2012 D4 HSE
  • 1992 RRC aka RedRover

I have a new compressor, it was replaced under warranty almost two years ago.  But out of all the faults I could get, that would be the one I'm most concerned about.  I need to the know the quickest way to get it aired back up and just keep it up. 

 

I'm going to be at the MORG on Saturday so perhaps Don and I can take a look at everything during lunch or something.  I don't want to have to do anything too complicated or anything that will take too long.  I need it to be as quick and easy as possible. 


  • dcproven likes this

Erin W.
"Jack Sparrow" 2012 Ipanema Sand LR4 HSE LUX; 18" LR3 Wheels, Johnson Rods, 30mm spacers, LT275/65R18 Cooper Discoverer A/T3, Baja Rack, Custom rear Kaymar bumper, factory Warn Winch kit for LR4, factory brush guard, Iron Man rear light, Hi-lift jack (recently mounted :D)
IMG_1172.JPG


#9
NThyrring

NThyrring

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Club Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • 2007 LR3
  • 2013 Range Rover Sport
All this talk of GAP tools and fuses is great if you are dealing with a fault.

What if you loose an air bag, compressor, or hose.

I tore my front right airbag three years ago when I was in the northern Nevada desert, by myself.

It took me two days to get limp out.

Check out this link:
(Not Mine)

http://www.rangerove...woodrepair.html
Thank you,

Nils

2007 LR3
2013 Range Rover Sport

#10
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,965 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

Again I'll say there is no NEED for pulling fuses.  While that will keep the truck from lowering, the GAP tool will do the same and more.  You CAN pull fuses, but why?

 

There is no worry about driving with the GAP tool plugged in.  It's very secure and will not fall out, and while I'm sure you could somehow kick it if you tried, you could also win the lottery or be struck by lightning.  None of these is likely.  Further, it draws an extremely limited amount of power so not a worry, plus you would of course have the engine running anyway so it's few milliamp draw is of no concern.

 

I believe Enrique's issue was a simple matter of not knowing how to take advantage of the GAP tool.  It's not super-intuitive.  I know there were times I had it with me and could have sorted an issue but I didn't know how to use that that feature.  For example, with rods on I had an error that dropped me to the bumpstops.  I used the GAP tool to clear the fault so the truck could reset but on the stops the rods had driven one of the sensors out of range, so it was caught in a loop...clear the code to re-activate the pump to raise the truck to clear the code....  I got around it by jacking the truck up a couple inches with my hilift then clearing the codes.  Had I been smarter about it I would have manually inflated the bags with the GAP tool then cleared the codes.  Same effect, but without the manual labor.  :)  

 

Simply 'hotwiring' the pump to run WILL NOT inflate the bags.  I've tried this on an LR4 (WRL, 3 years ago, Michel).  You have to run the pump AND trigger the appropriate combination of valve blocks.  It's easy to manually engage the relay for the pump, but until you also open the gallery valve and at least one corner valve nothing will happen.  Again - if the hardware will work at all the GAP tool can manually command all of these things and you can force it to lift to whatever height you want.  Then you can put the truck in 'build mode' and the EAS will not be able to control it...you will get an annoying gong every minute or two and a light on the dash because you have dissabled the EAS, but the truck will stay at the height you put it.

 

Knowing the fuses is a good back-up, but should never actually be needed for a field repair if you have a GAP tool and know how to use it.

 

We'll take some time and play with it on Saturday.  It's pretty cool what it can do.  Chad has been playing with his recently (does that sound dirty?) and is learning what it can do.  Very handy.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#11
erinw.rrc

erinw.rrc

    NCLR President

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Santa Clara
  • KA6DSC
  • 2012 D4 HSE
  • 1992 RRC aka RedRover

All this talk of GAP tools and fuses is great if you are dealing with a fault.

What if you loose an air bag, compressor, or hose.

I tore my front right airbag three years ago when I was in the northern Nevada desert, by myself.

It took me two days to get limp out.

Check out this link:
(Not Mine)

http://www.rangerove...woodrepair.html

 

I hope none of that happens!  The entire rally is designed for stock rigs, so I don't expect to be doing anything that will damage my truck.  I am mostly concerned about faults.


Erin W.
"Jack Sparrow" 2012 Ipanema Sand LR4 HSE LUX; 18" LR3 Wheels, Johnson Rods, 30mm spacers, LT275/65R18 Cooper Discoverer A/T3, Baja Rack, Custom rear Kaymar bumper, factory Warn Winch kit for LR4, factory brush guard, Iron Man rear light, Hi-lift jack (recently mounted :D)
IMG_1172.JPG


#12
erinw.rrc

erinw.rrc

    NCLR President

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Santa Clara
  • KA6DSC
  • 2012 D4 HSE
  • 1992 RRC aka RedRover

 

Simply 'hotwiring' the pump to run WILL NOT inflate the bags.  I've tried this on an LR4 (WRL, 3 years ago, Michel).  You have to run the pump AND trigger the appropriate combination of valve blocks.  It's easy to manually engage the relay for the pump, but until you also open the gallery valve and at least one corner valve nothing will happen.  Again - if the hardware will work at all the GAP tool can manually command all of these things and you can force it to lift to whatever height you want.  Then you can put the truck in 'build mode' and the EAS will not be able to control it...you will get an annoying gong every minute or two and a light on the dash because you have dissabled the EAS, but the truck will stay at the height you put it.

 

 

Goal is to not have any noises.  We need to focus on map and navigation and having those going off every couple of minutes day in a day out, will probably... no, not probably... we'll go insane. 


Erin W.
"Jack Sparrow" 2012 Ipanema Sand LR4 HSE LUX; 18" LR3 Wheels, Johnson Rods, 30mm spacers, LT275/65R18 Cooper Discoverer A/T3, Baja Rack, Custom rear Kaymar bumper, factory Warn Winch kit for LR4, factory brush guard, Iron Man rear light, Hi-lift jack (recently mounted :D)
IMG_1172.JPG


#13
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,965 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

All this talk of GAP tools and fuses is great if you are dealing with a fault.

What if you loose an air bag, compressor, or hose.

I tore my front right airbag three years ago when I was in the northern Nevada desert, by myself.

It took me two days to get limp out.

Check out this link:
(Not Mine)

http://www.rangerove...woodrepair.html

 

A possibility, but not a probability.   There are relatively few outright bag failures.  It has happened but it's far more common to have a computer related issue than a mechanical one.  

 

As for the compressor itself, they don't usually suffer acute failure.  It's more common for them to get progressively worse.  Again, anything can happen, like when I melted an air line on the compressor exhaust, meaning I physically couldn't lower the truck because the air couldn't get out.  Of course, that was the result of running a shorty exhaust.  

 

As for the linked article, won't work on an LR3/4/RRS.  There are no bumpstops of that type - they are integral to the struts so you can't just stuff a block of wood between the bumpstop and the axle.  This is specifically what Chad (and previously myself) was trying to address on his RRS with the Proud Rhino spacer kit - it's basically bumpstop extensions (it provides no change in ride height other than by rods).  As he found out however, it doesn't actually work quite right just yet.

 

There is no perfect solution.  Going coils will eliminate the suspension worries but brings it's own issues.  In the end you prepare as well as you can and roll the dice on the rest of it.


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#14
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,965 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

One thing you could do is invest in a couple of quick-connect unions, some hose, and a plug or two.  This would allow you to do field repairs if a line broke.  Of course, this assumes you are going to be up for crawling around under the rig to find the broke line (not easy given how well hidden they are).  


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#15
RedRover

RedRover

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Web Administrator
  • 3,398 posts
  • Santa Clara, CA
  • KJ6MQI
  • 1992 Range Rover Classic
  • 2012 Range Rover
  • 2012 Land Rover LR4

I thought Enrique had the gap tool and even though he was able to raise it it still collapsed. He had to do some combination of gap tool and pulling fuses to get it to stay up. At least that's what I recall from that thread.


Enrique had some other device that would show codes and clear them. It was not an IIDTool.

I know because I got to use it in the LR3 while he listened to the poor compressor as it was being overworked. It had to keep stopping to cool off. This is likely the sign of a weak compressor or some sort of leak causing the compressor to kick on more than it should.

Jared (KJ6MQI)
1992 Range Rover Classic - Portofino Red
2012 Range Rover HSE - Santorini Black

 


#16
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,965 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

Enrique had some other device that would show codes and clear them. It was not an IIDTool.

I know because I got to use it in the LR3 while he listened to the poor compressor as it was being overworked. It had to keep stopping to cool off. This is likely the sign of a weak compressor or some sort of leak causing the compressor to kick on more than it should.

Yes, sounds like a bad compressor.  The original LR3 compressors suffer a couple of primary failures.  First, the desiccant can break down and turn to powder, going out through the air lines and causing issues with the valves.  Next, they can develop a crack between two air fittings on the air dryer lid.  Very hard to see, but it will allow an air leak.  Lastly, and this sounds like what Enrique might have had going on, the ring on the piston can wear so the compressor just doesn't move much air.

 

Luckily you can resolve all three for less than $90 with this kit:

https://www.amazon.c... compressor kit

 

I see there is also a complete compressor on amazon for $325.  Looks like an AMK style.  No reviews and I don't recognize the seller so you're on your own here but it's certainly cheap.


  • Justin likes this

Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#17
RedRover

RedRover

    NCLR Club Member

  • NCLR Web Administrator
  • 3,398 posts
  • Santa Clara, CA
  • KJ6MQI
  • 1992 Range Rover Classic
  • 2012 Range Rover
  • 2012 Land Rover LR4

One thing you could do is invest in a couple of quick-connect unions, some hose, and a plug or two.  This would allow you to do field repairs if a line broke.  Of course, this assumes you are going to be up for crawling around under the rig to find the broke line (not easy given how well hidden they are).  

 

Curious now -- a cool project that would completely work around the compressor system would be to re-route the lines to an easy-to-reach location (perhaps under the bonnet) where a series of shutoff valves could be added and have 4 standard schrader connectors on the other side of the closed valves to use an external compressor (like the ARB or Viair) -- do you think those sorts of devices can produce enough 'oomph' to air up the bags individually?  I would think they could...

 

I realize the Green oval kit sort of does some of this, but it requires getting under the vehicle to lock the bags out.

 

http://www.greenovalexperience.com/eas


  • Justin likes this

Jared (KJ6MQI)
1992 Range Rover Classic - Portofino Red
2012 Range Rover HSE - Santorini Black

 


#18
AdvRovr

AdvRovr

    NCLR Treasurer

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,302 posts
  • Lathrop
  • K6ADV
  • 97 Range Rover 4.0
That's very similar to the kit that exists for the P38 under the hood. It looks like the larger kit they describe does not require getting under the truck. Once it's in, should be plug n play. I'm very tempted by this idea...

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 


#19
DHappel

DHappel

    NCLR Trip Ambassador

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,965 posts
  • Walnut Grove, CA
  • KK6TBH
  • '07 LR3 with stuff
  • '96 D1 Roadster
  • '94 RRC
  • '96 D1

Curious now -- a cool project that would completely work around the compressor system would be to re-route the lines to an easy-to-reach location (perhaps under the bonnet) where a series of shutoff valves could be added and have 4 standard schrader connectors on the other side of the closed valves to use an external compressor (like the ARB or Viair) -- do you think those sorts of devices can produce enough 'oomph' to air up the bags individually?  I would think they could...

 

I realize the Green oval kit sort of does some of this, but it requires getting under the vehicle to lock the bags out.

 

http://www.greenovalexperience.com/eas

I have a green oval kit.  Never installed it.  Michel (I have no idea how to correctly spell his name) had one on his LR4 as well but had a failure due to questionable installation.  I do know it would take a pretty stout compressor to lift the truck manually with the G.O. kit as the stock system runs somewhere around 150 psi I believe.  I know my portable compressor couldn't lift his truck fully with the G.O. kit, but that may have been partially due to the installation as well.

 

Erin, there's no good way around the gong if you by-pass the system.  Fuse or GAP tool will cause it.  It's a stop-gap to get you moving, not a repair.  


Don
'07 LR3 HSE/HD - slightly non-stock

'96 D1 - even more non-stock


#20
AdvRovr

AdvRovr

    NCLR Treasurer

  • NCLR BOD Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,302 posts
  • Lathrop
  • K6ADV
  • 97 Range Rover 4.0

I have a green oval kit.  Never installed it.  Michel (I have no idea how to correctly spell his name) had one on his LR4 as well but had a failure due to questionable installation.  I do know it would take a pretty stout compressor to lift the truck manually with the G.O. kit as the stock system runs somewhere around 150 psi I believe.  I know my portable compressor couldn't lift his truck fully with the G.O. kit, but that may have been partially due to the installation as well.

 

Erin, there's no good way around the gong if you by-pass the system.  Fuse or GAP tool will cause it.  It's a stop-gap to get you moving, not a repair.  

Technically, you could just unplug the gong before you begin. Usually they're mounted in the footwell panels under the steering wheel. Now, is that a "good way"? Beats me. But it should get rid of all manner of warning noises for the duration of the rally. 

 

Are you, uhh...ahem....looking to part with the G.O. kit? You may have an interested buyer here.


Chad // Instagram: @AdvRovr
2009 Range Rover Sport // 2001 BMW 330Ci // 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser // 1996 Triumph Tiger 900

FOR SALE: Built 1997 Range Rover 4.0 // 2006 BMW 330i 6MT 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users